26 replies to this topic

[apfever]

Here is the OTA down to every nut, bolt, and single part. More soon. I just got an emergency appointment for a major molar crown that fell off.  I'll be back later today...hmmm maybe tomorrow.

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[jimr2]

Looks good. Good luck with it--and good luck with your crown! (I've had my fair share of crown issues over the yrs, so can empathize with you!)

 

Again, best of luck, on all fronts!

 

-jim-

[YourNotSirius]

Looks like one of my old man's projects. Have fun!

 

As for the dentist thing, we all have been using Apagard Royal toothpaste for years and have no cavities or crowns or anything. In fact, since it helps to restore the enamel the few fillings he did have were pushed out and the teeth are repaired. It's not cheap but it does work better than anything sold here. It's from Japan and we have it shipped in every few months. The stuff is the bomb!

 

Later!

 

Q

[apfever]

To nick the dental discussion here (ended), I did take a look so TY Quinton and pm sent. 

 

Here is a LINK to the "Classic Finds" thread when I first found this scope, or it found me. This sparked several excellent responses, and it explains the special meaning of this scope to me. There is a LOT in the link to avoid repetition here.  I will be doing things to this that will seem extreme for what it is. It is easy for me to do these things, I have done them before, and I'm set up to do them quickly again. It will take more time to post the work than actual time doing the work. Just a heads up. Brief summary: This scope is the missing link I've had in a full restoration of the Edmund Conqueror series. The Photo is of the 4 part series, the Space Conqueror, Deluxe Space Conqueror, Super Space Conqueror, and The 8" which was never given an official name. 

 

There is little to be done for the most part. Things are in good shape. The most extensive thing will be attempting to do an original OTA coating wrap. 

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[apfever]

The primary cell back plate had a substantial dent from impact on a collimation bolt.  The inward dent also caused the cell to bulge outward towards the edge. Compensation for the dent cause that collimation bolt to look wacked out of place compared to the other two bolts. I used a shop press to flatten the plate, probably flatter than factory or flitter. Paint touch up was done with an acrylic paint pen. 

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Edited by apfever, 23 April 2025 - 11:47 AM.

[apfever]

This route requires a CLEAN machined flat base and I add a thin cloth buffer between the base and item being pressed. I used two stacked hardened machined disk from a dado assembly. For the inside I found some large washers that drop fit for size and had nice rounded edges to accommodate the cells rounded edge.  All the rest is stacking distribution of the force. Getting the press parts took a few minutes as I have a ton (maybe literally) of this stuff around the press. 

 

Here is a link to a previous scope job.

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Edited by apfever, 23 April 2025 - 12:02 PM.

[apfever]

Yes they did! There is no buffer between the mirror and the steel nut retainer edges. It turns out the entire retaining system is redundant. The mirror is glued to the plate with a hard glue and no clearance. It is still rock solid.  I will add three beads of silicone spaced around the edge between mirror and plate. I am considering leaving the whole clip assembly off, and keeping it with the original parts pack. There will be less things for reflection, diffraction, and complication. Blip the clip.  The mirror plate has bump outs that seat the collimation screw heads. Those bump outs are just the right size to hold the collimation springs nicely centered around the bolts. 

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[apfever]

This is an extreme rebuild for this level scope. It is completely reversible with no permanent mods. Ace Hardware is right next to my grocery store, so no special trip needed. I would never do this outside of the convenience and having done it many times on other cells. 

 

I found some T nuts with tangs that were just the right size to hold the springs centered on the collimation bolts. The threaded center of the T nuts were a slip fit on the collimation bolts...almost, close enough to start. The washers go between the collimation nuts and the back plate. The back plate is then sandwiched between the T nuts and washers. This greatly supports the back plate against future dents, and keeps the collimation nuts from grinding into the back plate. 

 

Extra option in the upper left corner while at the hardware store.

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[apfever]

Assembly.  I like red and it helps show details. I'll do the other two T nuts in red before final assembly. 

It is important to put the original nuts and washers back on the collimation bolts. This secures the bolts in the mirror plate against turning with the collimation nuts, and it adds substantial rigidity to the bolts. 

My springs were tapered on one end with a reduced diameter. The small end should go towards the mirror, especially if you use the original clips (or you could have issues). The small end fits nicely around the nuts and mirror plate bump out. The springs originally 'popped' into the T nuts. I ever so slightly bent the tangs out to relieve any binding. 

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Edited by apfever, 23 April 2025 - 04:51 PM.

[apfever]

Ah, much better.

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Edited by apfever, 23 April 2025 - 04:59 PM.

[apfever]

The cell is a nice slip-wiggle fit onto the tube with zero clearance. However, it is only held by these three grubby screws into the 0.167" paper tube wall. That is enough to grab about 2.5 screw threads.  I have an idea that I think will greatly reinforce this with no apparent mod of any kind, all original parts, no one would know. I haven't done it yet and open to opinions.

 

1.  Run the screws back in by carefully finding the original threads in the tube. I'm fairly confident in finding the original threads as I do this a lot.

2.  Do not tighten the screws. Run them down and back out only to help 'nest' the paper in position.

3.  Put in a drop or two of a very watery glue like super glue (no gel type). Let it thoroughly dry at least overnight.

 

I have never noticed any tendency for cyanoacrylate type glues to expand or deform porous material like wound paper. I think this will give the screws a good 'new' grab and let them be removeable the same as from an original installation. It's an oblivious mod that will remain in place, an alternate to regular filling and re drilling or gluing the screws in. Worth a test run on one. 

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Edited by apfever, 23 April 2025 - 06:37 PM.

[apfever]

The mounting hardware is two standard 1/4-20 X 1" bolts. These have a broad head with a star washer inside the tube. They are captive to the tube with a regular nut and washer on the outside. The whole thing is held to the mount rails with wing nuts and no washers. Undermounting washers with wing nuts could be annoying for kids (you too?). The mounting holes in the saddle are a sloppy 3/8" with perfect center to center distance. I might add washers to the wingers but I don't really care. This mounting is plenty beefy for this scope and I don't see any reason to change one thing. My tube shows zero issues with this.

 

Any tube issues can be easily fixed by adding a pre curved fender washer, or narrow length of flat stock with two holes drilled.  The OTA is held solid to the mount rails with very little pressure. 

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[apfever]

The finder bracket was just fun. It's cute, efficient, and has unique far easier greater adjustment leeway than just about anything out there. The mechanics are straight forward in the pictures. Take note of the red circled areas compared to the other side. It is easy to tighten the wire retaining clips while they are out of alignment with the mounting base. The wire retainers are spring loaded in the clips and it is easy to push the clips out of their proper nesting. This caught me by surprise but I'm not the sharpest ball on the table, more eight variety. 

The wire retainers have a lot of travel to move independently of each other, up, down, and sideways. Micro adjustments are easy by finger with light tension on the clips. Not bad for beginner size. The mounting base is quite rigid as stamped steel. 

 

The bracket mounting bolts are puny # 8-32 X 1/2" long straight slots. The head and star washer are outside with a single nut, NO washer inside the tube. The punched nuts have a distinct sharp face and finished face. The arrowed one in the picture is the sharp face. The sharp face goes against the tube inside. The bolt is tensioned so the nut is pulled slightly into the inner tube wall. This locks the nut like a lock washer. The holes in the tube are a tight fit to assist the puny nuts. It is easier to screw the bolt through the tube while holding the nut tight to the inside till fully engaged. This worked great and I will nest the nuts back into their impressions. 

I don't see any reason to change a thing on this. I haven't seen a bracket like it. 

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Edited by apfever, 23 April 2025 - 08:38 PM.

[apfever]

The focuser.

Robert shows some detail in This entry Here that I can't since I'm missing the phenolic draw tube (slip tube). 

 

My focuser body does not look like a Bakelite casting. Some might be. It is held by two straight slot #6-32 screws. The back screw is 5/8" long, no washer either side. The front screw is 2" long, and has a washer on each side.

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[apfever]

The short back bolt has no washers on either side. It is tightened just enough to snug the nut into the paper wall tube. This acts like a lock for the nut. I've noticed that all these little nuts on this scope have a distinct sharp edged face and a smooth rounded finished face. All these were installed with the sharp edge against the tube wall to grab into the wall. ALL of them on all the bolt ons. It looks intentional.

 

The long front bolt has a washer, a 1-1/4" aluminum spacer tube, another washer, secondary mounting bracket, and nylock nut. The spacer tube and washers can be adjusted to position the secondary the correct distance into the tube. It is a fairly rigid system, but lacking in normal collimation adjustments. 

 

Collimation will be funky to say the least. The secondary can be spaced to the correct distance into the tube. It can also be rotated around the shaft bolt. There is no way to tilt the secondary between the focuser and primary, and no way to rotate the secondary sideways across the focuser opening. I have to re attach the secondary so I will have some leeway but it's going to still be funky.  

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[apfever]

The bolt on items are ready. The OTA tube needs a refinish. The original finish is a very thin white plastic wrap. It is a single piece wrap with an overlap seam nicely placed along the bottom of the tube. The mounting bolts go through the seam. This wrap is thin to the point of being translucent. It does not clean well. Soap and water helped but not enough in this case. Anything aggressive, Especially solvent based sprays like WD40 and others, can pass through the wrap and highlight the brown paper. I tried some spray lube type wiping and had to wait days for drying to reduce the bleed through of the underside. I also have some abrasions and nicks that go through the wrap.

 

Hobby Lobby has THIS LINK proprietary German product that comes in several colors. The iridescent white was so tempting but I held to original gloss white. The girls at Hobby Lobby were great. They let me pull, sample, measure, compare, etc.  The roll has enough for two wraps but a wrap will be a hair over 1/16" short going around. I'm good with the gap going down the original lapped seam. 

 

I used a white acrylic paint pen to color in any bare brown paper areas.  My plans are to heat and vacuum seal the wrap onto the tube. More on that later. 

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Edited by apfever, 06 May 2025 - 08:58 AM.

[John Rogers]

I am looking forward to seeing the completed restoration.  Thanks for sharing your progress.

[deSitter]

I haven't seen those flat-sided nuts in a long time! But they are intended to put even pressure on a washer so as not to bend it in the center. Precision fastener.

 

I remember building a 3" from Edmund parts as a bargain side scope for my RV-6. The adjustment was via a long 1/4-20 bolt in the back that provided up/down adjustment for the rear of the tube, and the aluminum base and yoke from a darkroom light that was exactly the right width to fix the tube in the yoke, with side-to-side motion in the front of the tube. This ridiculous system worked perfectly! It was so stable I could use the 3" to check the collimation of the 6" because it absolutely never came out of collimation itself, having a stalk secondary with a double-sided, taped-on mirror and modified mirror adjusters with very stiff springs and 1/4-20 posts. It was exactly this scope with the plastic focuser but updated so that a stalk secondary could be used, as on the Pal Jr. That scope was very sharp optically. A 3" f/10 sphere is as good as a parabola to 1/8th wave.

 

This is from 1969 - the focuser had a chrome split-tube eyepiece holder, not a phenolic tube. Your focuser may actually be bakelite. Mine was definitely polystyrene. Sam Brown shows your focuser on the 3" build.

 

-drl

 

 

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Edited by deSitter, 06 May 2025 - 09:57 AM.

[John Rogers]

The short back bolt has no washers on either side. It is tightened just enough to snug the nut into the paper wall tube. This acts like a lock for the nut. I've noticed that all these little nuts on this scope have a distinct sharp edged face and a smooth rounded finished face. All these were installed with the sharp edge against the tube wall to grab into the wall. ALL of them on all the bolt ons. It looks intentional.

 

The long front bolt has a washer, a 1-1/4" aluminum spacer tube, another washer, secondary mounting bracket, and nylock nut. The spacer tube and washers can be adjusted to position the secondary the correct distance into the tube. It is a fairly rigid system, but lacking in normal collimation adjustments. 

 

Collimation will be funky to say the least. The secondary can be spaced to the correct distance into the tube. It can also be rotated around the shaft bolt. There is no way to tilt the secondary between the focuser and primary, and no way to rotate the secondary sideways across the focuser opening. I have to re attach the secondary so I will have some leeway but it's going to still be funky.  

I don't see the secondary mirror in any of your photos.  In an earlier post you indicate that you were missing the phenolic slip tube, but I see one in your photo here.  Were you able to locate one?

 

Your post reminded me that I picked up a box of parts that someone had salvaged from an old ota.  If I recall, the secondary was included in that assortment.

[apfever]

I need to post a request in the "Wanted" string.

Here is the original 0.828" secondary, just a hair over 13/16".  It has a chip that looks much worse than it is. By far most of the clam goes down the back side. So little chip is up front that I was planning on using it as the actual factory original. I don't think distortion of the glass will be a concern, and certainly not considering the experience level of the scope. I wouldn't turn down a 'good' one if it walked past me and was an Edmund original.

 

I am missing the focuser pull tube. The item I have inserted in entry #15 is the barlow tube. The tubes are the same type but the barlow is much longer, 4" for the barlow and only 2-1/2" for the focuser pull tube.  The barlow is original equipment with the scope so sacrificing that is not an option. 

 

I can live without a better secondary. I need to find a replacement for the focuser tube. 

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Edited by apfever, 06 May 2025 - 12:08 PM.

[John Rogers]

You are in luck.  I found the box containing the parts.  The focuser has the drawtube and secondary attached.

 

 

Send me your address in a PM and I will mail them off to you.

[apfever]

Incredible John.  You go into the posterity documentation for this one, a part of it's provenance.  I'll spot some touches of silicone glue around the edge of the holder and secondary. Still keeping the original secondary well protected with the scopes 'extras'. 

 

Everybody take note of how the focuser assembly was removed from the OTA.  I'm luvin that one! Still laughing. 

 

That finder looks exactly like mine but painted black or wrapped in electrical tape. John, can you verify that coming from a Space Conqueror? All the others I've seen have a silver front cell and no end ring on the main tube where the slider goes in. Mine is unpainted with the brown wrap showing on both tube sections. It came in the correct holder but I don't remember what I got it on originally. I think it came on a home made. It was offered as a stand alone item with the wire finder bracket. I wouldn't doubt at all that Edmund sent some SC scopes out with it. I'll do the finder next in this string.

[John Rogers]

Thanks Neil.  I think the previous owner cut it from the cardboard tube, since it was easier than drilling out the pop-rivet.   Both it and the finder mount were attached with pop-rivets and cut away from the tube.  

 

All of the previous finders I have seen do have the metal ring.  I can't confirm if this is original, but will fit in the wire finder mount.

 

They will be on the way to you tomorrow.

[apfever]

I haven't seen those flat-sided nuts in a long time! But they are intended to put even pressure on a washer so as not to bend it in the center. Precision fastener.

 

I remember building a 3" from Edmund parts as a bargain side scope for my RV-6. The adjustment was via a long 1/4-20 bolt in the back that provided up/down adjustment for the rear of the tube, and the aluminum base and yoke from a darkroom light that was exactly the right width to fix the tube in the yoke, with side-to-side motion in the front of the tube. This ridiculous system worked perfectly! It was so stable I could use the 3" to check the collimation of the 6" because it absolutely never came out of collimation itself, having a stalk secondary with a double-sided, taped-on mirror and modified mirror adjusters with very stiff springs and 1/4-20 posts. It was exactly this scope with the plastic focuser but updated so that a stalk secondary could be used, as on the Pal Jr. That scope was very sharp optically. A 3" f/10 sphere is as good as a parabola to 1/8th wave.

 

This is from 1969 - the focuser had a chrome split-tube eyepiece holder, not a phenolic tube. Your focuser may actually be bakelite. Mine was definitely polystyrene. Sam Brown shows your focuser on the 3" build.

 

-drl

Worthy sidetrack as these focusers are very similar with the same mechanics, and I found two of them here with the same issues as my SC. Both focusers are on 4.25" finder scopes. The green OTA is from a 12.5" Optical Craftsmen. The blue/white OTA is on my 10" ANRA. These take 1.25" eyepieces. They require the slip tube since the focuser body is much too large for a direct 1.25" eyepiece. The slip tube would have a thick enough wall to thread for a set screw. 

Both of my finder focusers are missing the slip tube, just as my SC is missing the slip tube (soon to be rectified).  The tube inserts must be commonly lost or it's just my luck.  

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[apfever]

My scope came with only the finder base attached. There was no finder or wire brackets. I already had an extra complete finder and mount from a discarded sadly done ATM scope.  My finder is bare brown tube on both sections. My 'fake' non intrusive mod is to tightly wrap the tube with printer paper and tape the overlap with frosted 'scotch' type tape. I've done this before and it looks great even close up. It's very hard to tell it's a paper wrap, but it is not good for exposure to any weather including simple dew. A white plastic wrap would be a good option to maintain reversibility. 

 

The slide tube has a felt strip that provides tension and locks the slider inside the rear end ring. The slider with felt can be wiggled out with some effort. I will keep that part bare brown to show original construction. The finder has two singlets (as far as I can tell) but gives decent images for this level scope. It works well with ample eye relief, no cross hairs. All three end caps are glued on this one. 

 

NOTE to other SC owners: I will offer up my extra finder parts for free after going through John's donation and final assembly of the scope. You can pm if you need them, don't respond in the string. 

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Edited by apfever, 08 May 2025 - 09:56 AM.