84 replies to this topic

[LDW47]

I'm quite new to astronomy, and I've recently enjoyed observing some galaxies with my 6" reflector. The faintest galaxies I have been able to see so far are M81 and M82, and I have additionally seen the andromeda galaxy. As I know galaxy magnitude can be misleading, what galaxies will I be able to see that are similar in difficulty to M81 and M82 with my telescope?

With a 150mm reflector you have probably named the 3 best, most of the others are at the mersey of the sky conditions on any given nite. Don't expect miracles even with top line eyepieces or Bortle 1 skies, eh. My 6" dob was a great scope as was my 8 in. and ....., they put out great views, with great eps but galaxies are galaxys and that won't change, they are light or dark smudges all depending.  PS:  I was under Bortle 1, SQM-L 22.00 skize for 50 yrs., I visited many, many times, good luck to you.

Edited by LDW47, 03 May 2025 - 09:27 AM.

[kingsbishop]

With a 150mm reflector you have probably named the 3 best, most of the others are at the mersey of the sky conditions on any given nite. Don't expect miracles even with top line eyepieces or Bortle 1 skies, eh.

He’s named the 3 worst from my location in the southern hemisphere 😂

[LDW47]

He’s named the 3 worst from my location in the southern hemisphere

Thats your southern problem, eh.

[Tony Flanders]

My 6" dob was a great scope as was my 8 in. and ....., they put out great views, with great eps but galaxies are galaxys and that won't change, they are light or dark smudges all depending.  PS:  I was under Bortle 1, SQM-L 22.00 skize for 50 yrs., I visited many, many times, good luck to you.

I'm surprised by that comment. A 6-inch (150-mm) scope under genuinely good skies should show a great deal of detail in a large number of galaxies. For instance, M51's spiral arms should be obvious.

Even a much smaller scope under much worse skies shows a surprising amount. Last week I was using my 80-mm refractor from my 21.0-mpsas backyard. And while I certainly couldn't make out M51's spiral arms as such, I could see the two main concentrations to the W and NW that mark the arm that doesn't reach toward the companion galaxy, as well as the prominent dark area between the NW concentration and the core.

The small scope under semi-dark skies also showed significant structure in M82, M106, M66, and M104. And tantalizing hints in many other galaxies.

[LDW47]

I'm surprised by that comment. A 6-inch (150-mm) scope under genuinely good skies should show a great deal of detail in a large number of galaxies. For instance, M51's spiral arms should be obvious.

Even a much smaller scope under much worse skies shows a surprising amount. Last week I was using my 80-mm refractor from my 21.0-mpsas backyard. And while I certainly couldn't make out M51's spiral arms as such, I could see the two main concentrations to the W and NW that mark the arm that doesn't reach toward the companion galaxy, as well as the prominent dark area between the NW concentration and the core.

The small scope under semi-dark skies also showed significant structure in M82, M106, M66, and M104. And tantalizing hints in many other galaxies.

I'm just going to stick with my comments. Don't read anything into them, sure you can pick up other galaxies but they are still undetailed smudges unless you are good at dreaming or have a Hubble image beside you, lol. I think the OP is expecting more, eh.

[LDW47]

I'm surprised by that comment. A 6-inch (150-mm) scope under genuinely good skies should show a great deal of detail in a large number of galaxies. For instance, M51's spiral arms should be obvious.

Even a much smaller scope under much worse skies shows a surprising amount. Last week I was using my 80-mm refractor from my 21.0-mpsas backyard. And while I certainly couldn't make out M51's spiral arms as such, I could see the two main concentrations to the W and NW that mark the arm that doesn't reach toward the companion galaxy, as well as the prominent dark area between the NW concentration and the core.

The small scope under semi-dark skies also showed significant structure in M82, M106, M66, and M104. And tantalizing hints in many other galaxies.

On an exceptional nite M51 is a close 4th, close.

[Asbytec]

I think I agree with Tony. Under Bortle 4-ish skies, detail is possible in quite a few small bright galaxies. They aren't necessarily faint fuzzies. It's not the grandeur of a larger aperture, but it's not nothing. 

 

Edited by Asbytec, 03 May 2025 - 11:03 AM.

[WillR]

On an exceptional nite M51 is a close 4th, close.

I have found M51 to be somewhat elusive. I think it is harder than a lot of the other Messiers. Maybe because when I started out, I was using Turn Left at Orion with a 5” telescope and couldn’t see it to save my life. I remember one day after failing to see it again for maybe the fourth time being ready to through the telescope in the drink.

 

Ironically, when I finally did see it, it was scanning the sky with 15 x 70 binoculars. When starting out, it’s so much about knowing how to look, exactly what to look for, and how a target will look in the eyepiece. There is no substitute for experience.

Edited by WillR, 03 May 2025 - 11:36 AM.

[Refractor6]

 With my dark skies M51 and NGC5195 are a piece of cake with structural detail at the ep in my 6" refractor....as I said in a earlier post the quality of the sky makes all the world of difference when it comes to galaxy observing and hunting.

 

If you're not having much luck under light polluted conditions trying getting away from the main source and try again...you'll be surprised what you see...what wasn't there is clearly there when the contrast switch {dark sky} is on.

[LDW47]

 With my dark skies M51 and NGC5195 are a piece of cake with structural detail at the ep in my 6" refractor....as I said in a earlier post the quality of the sky makes all the world of difference when it comes to galaxy observing and hunting.

 

If you're not having much luck under light polluted conditions trying getting away from the main source and try again...you'll be surprised what you see...what wasn't there is clearly there when the contrast switch {dark sky} is on.

Keep in mind there is a big difference between a 6" refractor and a 150mm reflector.  Under SQM-L 22.00 M51 is there but its still not picture book most times, conditions, all conditions incl. your ep have to be just right.  The OP isn't there yet.

[UnityLover]

Tip: ngc 2903 is NOT as easy as it looks. It's actually only slightly harder than ngc 3628.

Ngc 3077 is rather bright in Leo. 

In Ursa major m109 is also as difficult as ngc 3628 and ngc 2903.

M81 and m82 are really the only ones you could see.

[Dave Mitsky]

Here's a cropped version of a 40 minute-long Seestar S50 image on NGC 2903 that I captured last year.

Attached Thumbnails

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[Asbytec]

Here's a cropped version of a 40 minute-long Seestar S50 image on NGC 2903 that I captured last year.

Below is my observation in a 6" under Bortle 4-ish skies (roughly oriented to match Dave's image). Detail is visible in this galaxy. It's not really a faint fuzzy. 

 

[Tony Flanders]

Here's the truth of the matter. No galaxies are easy to observe! That most definitely includes M31, the Andromeda Galaxy -- in fact it's a perfect case in point.

 

M31 is exceedingly easy to detect; I can see it with little effort through 7x35 binoculars from New York City's Central Park on any decent night when it's high in the sky. And I can see it with my unaided eyes from any decent suburban site -- even ones where I've never seen a hint of the Milky Way.

 

But all that most newbies can see of M31 from light-polluted sites is the small, bright, essentially featureless, nearly circular core. Under darker skies they're likely to see the core surrounded by an elliptical haze roughly one degree long. But seeing detail beyond that takes practice and skill. Most of M31's disk is visible only with averted vision even under pristine skies, and building detail with averted vision isn't easy. You have to learn to trust your eyes; you have to learn what galaxies in general look like to see how any particular one conforms or fails to conform to the norm.

 

My favorite example is M51. Its spiral arms are arguably the boldest of any galaxy in the sky, yet they were never seen as such until Lord Rosse trained his giant 72-inch telescope on M51. Even such John Herschel, one of the most experienced and skilled visual observers of all times, using the 18-inch telescope that discovered most of the NGC objects, saw it as an entirely different shape.

 

In retrospect we know exactly why. Although M51's arms are exceedingly bold (for objects visible only with averted vision), they're also abnormally kinky due to the gravitational impact of M51's companion. After Rosse's scope demonstrated that spiral arms are the norm, it was easy to see M51's arms that way. Experienced observers can do it easily with 4-inch scopes under dark skies.

 

Likewise, nobody realized that M31 was a spiral until it was photographed.

[LDW47]

Below is my observation in a 6" under Bortle 4-ish skies (roughly oriented to match Dave's image). Detail is visible in this galaxy. It's not really a faint fuzzy. 

 

NGC 2903 (2).png

 

Below is my observation in a 6" under Bortle 4-ish skies (roughly oriented to match Dave's image). Detail is visible in this galaxy. It's not really a faint fuzzy. 

 

NGC 2903 (2).png

What exactly did you use to get this image, eh.

[LDW47]

Here's the truth of the matter. No galaxies are easy to observe! That most definitely includes M31, the Andromeda Galaxy -- in fact it's a perfect case in point.

 

M31 is exceedingly easy to detect; I can see it with little effort through 7x35 binoculars from New York City's Central Park on any decent night when it's high in the sky. And I can see it with my unaided eyes from any decent suburban site -- even ones where I've never seen a hint of the Milky Way.

 

But all that most newbies can see of M31 from light-polluted sites is the small, bright, essentially featureless, nearly circular core. Under darker skies they're likely to see the core surrounded by an elliptical haze roughly one degree long. But seeing detail beyond that takes practice and skill. Most of M31's disk is visible only with averted vision even under pristine skies, and building detail with averted vision isn't easy. You have to learn to trust your eyes; you have to learn what galaxies in general look like to see how any particular one conforms or fails to conform to the norm.

 

My favorite example is M51. Its spiral arms are arguably the boldest of any galaxy in the sky, yet they were never seen as such until Lord Rosse trained his giant 72-inch telescope on M51. Even such John Herschel, one of the most experienced and skilled visual observers of all times, using the 18-inch telescope that discovered most of the NGC objects, saw it as an entirely different shape.

 

In retrospect we know exactly why. Although M51's arms are exceedingly bold (for objects visible only with averted vision), they're also abnormally kinky due to the gravitational impact of M51's companion. After Rosse's scope demonstrated that spiral arms are the norm, it was easy to see M51's arms that way. Experienced observers can do it easily with 4-inch scopes under dark skies.

 

Likewise, nobody realized that M31 was a spiral until it was photographed.

In all my years I have still considered M31 to be one of the toughest, save with a smart scope, eh.

[Asbytec]

What exactly did you use to get this image, eh.

150 MCT under workable tropical skies in good seeing.

[Minuam]

Apr, 28, 2025, No Moon, Backyard and Light Pollution
According to the apps, Bortle 8 and SQM under 18
Seeing coastal but quite good today, 12 th mags stars visible(on the lower side of 12)
8” SCT and 6 degrees finder with star diagonal which mirrors my view of the EP. Manual Observing.
NELM – about 4.6

 

 

After spending some time with M13, which showed me about 3 dozen stars and the best so far, I pointed my 8” SCT towards Vindmiatrix – Epsilon – Virginis without any hope and was surprised to see a galaxy at 64x(31mm).
When I looked in the finder I saw a grouping of 6 stars near. Sky Safari told me that there was a double star(STF 1658) in this grouping and found out that I was looking at M49.
When I tried 156x(13mm) then M49 looked more like M27. Slightly largish nebulous. I did not see bright core. I also saw much fainter NGC 4560 in this same groping of stars.

 

In finder, I could also see a lambda type asterism of 4 stars with a bright star and found out that it has Rho – Virginis.
Encouraged by this and with the help of the finder I was also able to see M84 and M86. Both had a 10 th mag star near.

 

Since then I have also located the four galaxies in the bad seeing but I am not able to see them with 4” scope.

 

Clear Skies

[Starman1]

I'm quite new to astronomy, and I've recently enjoyed observing some galaxies with my 6" reflector. The faintest galaxies I have been able to see so far are M81 and M82, and I have additionally seen the andromeda galaxy. As I know galaxy magnitude can be misleading, what galaxies will I be able to see that are similar in difficulty to M81 and M82 with my telescope?

Go here and download a list of 500 objects, most of which are galaxies.

https://www.cloudyni...orum/?p=9861359

Leo has M65 and M66, which are comparable to M81 and M82 in brightness.

 

All are visible in my 4" refractor, so a 6" should be OK.

Note, however, they are all visible in a 4" scope in dark skies.  In bright skies, not so much.

Galaxies and nebulae are the very hardest objects to observe from the Earth, which is why the Hubble telescope has concentrated on them.

 

If you are new to astronomy, start with:

Moon

Planets

globular star clusters

open star clusters

planetary nebulae

double stars

carbon stars

and slowly work into galaxies, dark nebulae, reflection nebulae, and emission nebulae.

 

Observing with a telescope is a lot like learning to play the piano--it takes practice to get good at it.

In a few years, you'll go back to M81 and M82 because you want to observe some bright, large, objects.

There is no activity you can do that helps you see details in small faint objects other than observing small faint objects in a telescope.

Eventually, it'll be easy. 

 

There are at least 3500 fairly easy objects to view in a 6".  If your skies are bright, the best thing you can do is to drive the scope to darker skies.

[mikemarotta]

I also use a 6" Dob and some of my favorite galaxies to view through it are in Leo.

 

Firstly is the Leo Triplet (M65, M66 & NGC3628). I also love hunting down NGC2903 near Lambda Leonis. 

 

They are all around mag 9 or so and I can see them from my backyard in the suburbs (Bortle 5 / 6). 

You are at 57North 4West. How is that "suburbs"?

 

 

You seem to be in the middle of nowhere surrounded by a national park.

 

This is suburbs and the Andromeda Galaxy is visible. Of M81/M82, I believe that I found M82 but never M81. I have been here almost four years and never made out any of the Leo Triplet or the Virgo Cluster.  

 

 

Our local astronomy club is active with the state parks nearby and several of us are cleared to be tour guides. The one I go to is about 30 miles outside of town (Austin, Texas) and the seeing is better, of course, though only for the brightest of galaxies and with larger aperture.

 

Clear Skies,

Mike M.

Edited by mikemarotta, 10 May 2025 - 04:22 PM.

[snakehelah]

You are at 57North 4West. How is that "suburbs"?

 

100 Miles North of Glagow and Edinburgh.png

 

You seem to be in the middle of nowhere surrounded by a national park.

 

This is suburbs and the Andromeda Galaxy is visible. Of M81/M82, I believe that I found M82 but never M81. I have been here almost four years and never made out any of the Leo Triplet or the Virgo Cluster.  

 

Screenshot 2025-05-10 at 4.07.05 PM.png

 

Our local astronomy club is active with the state parks nearby and several of us are cleared to be tour guides. The one I go to is about 30 miles outside of town (Austin, Texas) and the seeing is better, of course, though only for the brightest of galaxies and with larger aperture.

 

Clear Skies,

Mike M.

If M82 is visible M81 should also be visible tbh. Although I am using an 8" reflector. The area I'm in is suburban, to me these always come as an observing pair. I can't imagine seeing one but not the other. Although M81 looks kind of like a dimmer star that has a halo.

[WillR]

You are at 57North 4West. How is that "suburbs"?

 

100 Miles North of Glagow and Edinburgh.png

 

You seem to be in the middle of nowhere surrounded by a national park.

 

This is suburbs and the Andromeda Galaxy is visible. Of M81/M82, I believe that I found M82 but never M81. I have been here almost four years and never made out any of the Leo Triplet or the Virgo Cluster.  

 

Screenshot 2025-05-10 at 4.07.05 PM.png

 

Our local astronomy club is active with the state parks nearby and several of us are cleared to be tour guides. The one I go to is about 30 miles outside of town (Austin, Texas) and the seeing is better, of course, though only for the brightest of galaxies and with larger aperture.

 

Clear Skies,

Mike M.

Good catch. Perhaps that is a typo in Alex65's signature, or his favorite place to go. I Googled it as well and got the same map you did. The closest "town" is Lynaberack, and here's the description I found of it in Google: " A township, comprising four roofed buildings, one unroofed building, three enclosures and some lengths of field-wall". 

 

Hopefully. Alex will weigh in and clarify. Personally, 57° N and 4° W looks lake a lovely spot to stargaze, but not in June when it will never get truly dark. 

[Mark Lovik]

I've told this before .... a few more details

 

I had cataract surgery this winter.  It was easy to compare eyes during the time only the first one was complete.  This explains part of my failures looking at galaxies in my suburban skies.  Light pollution is the other part.

 

• I originally tried to see M51 with 15x70 binoculars and an 8" SCT in my local skies (B4-B5).  I know I have identified the region (star patterns) but no galaxy.  This was before eye surgery.
• Went to EAA to see galaxies and dropped visual for a (long) time.
• Went to a few B1 New Mexico sites and looked at M31 visually.  Using a range of scopes (102mm, 115mm, 120mm) and lower power for a good field of view ... M31 is incredible.  The core, disk, dust lanes, and all the details are incredible with this aperture range.  Dark skies here are critical.
• Went home and looked at M31 in the same scopes ... 3 central cores were the only parts visible in the M31 region.
• Later have seen southern galaxies in NM ... EAA and visual using higher apertures (mostly 8").  Both sets of views are impressive.

I have been looking at some globulars (higher surface brightness than most galaxies) this spring with a 4" 102ED.  I know these would have been out of reach before eye surgery.  Not much detail at these apertures and B5 skies -- and these have higher surface brightness levels than I expect with most galaxies.  Galaxies are still expected to be a pain in my B5 skies even after improved eyes.

 

Really dark skies

• large galaxies are great in little 4-5" refractors.
• most Messier class of galaxies look good in 8-10" scopes

B5 skies - most galaxies are still not worth the time (even after patching up the eyes)

 

I have some lower B4 (maybe high B3) skies in shorter distances.

There are some B2'ish skies in moderate commutes in southern Missouri.

 

Curious how galaxy views improve at these different skies.  Yes transparency is part of this ... but going over 1000 miles to get a decent visual galaxy view is a bit much most of the time.

 

Yep -- Skies are the key.  If you get in these dark skies ... reasonable telescopes help

 

I focus (sort) on surface brightness in my EAA galaxy viewing, then size.  This provides a good idea of what I can find in the sky and details I can expect.  For visual (and in dark skies) ... it's the same thing.  AND ... I tend to skip the ellipticals ... boring at all times.

Edited by Mark Lovik, 11 May 2025 - 01:26 AM.

[Dave Mitsky]

This is a 17-minute-long Seestar S50 image of M94 in Canes Venatici that I captured not too long ago from my red zone home.  It's been AI Denoised using the S50 and touched up a bit in Photoshop.  The conditions were very poor with high clouds and a 98.0%-illuminated Moon.  I got a high SQM-L reading of 18.00 mpsas and a reading of 13.99 mpsas when I pointed the meter at the Moon.

Attached Thumbnails

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[Brain&Force]

If you are new to astronomy, start with:

Moon

Planets

globular star clusters

open star clusters

planetary nebulae

double stars

carbon stars

and slowly work into galaxies, dark nebulae, reflection nebulae, and emission nebulae.

 

Observing with a telescope is a lot like learning to play the piano--it takes practice to get good at it.

In a few years, you'll go back to M81 and M82 because you want to observe some bright, large, objects.

There is no activity you can do that helps you see details in small faint objects other than observing small faint objects in a telescope.

Eventually, it'll be easy. 

 

There are at least 3500 fairly easy objects to view in a 6".  If your skies are bright, the best thing you can do is to drive the scope to darker skies.

I went out to a dark site (Bortle 3) with some friends who were interested in stargazing about a month ago for galaxy season with an 8" RC. I severely underestimated the difficulty for inexperienced observers in making out details in certain galaxies despite the extremely favorable conditions (I've been doing visual observation for about 15 years on and off). They could pretty much universally see M104's dust band and the face at the west end of Markarian's Chain (M84/86) with some time, but they described M51 as a featureless disc with two bright patches, and could not see the full length of the Needle (NGC 4565/Caldwell 38), describing it as circular. Meanwhile, I found the M106 field to be rich in nearby galaxies at 40x (and M106 itself to be surprisingly detailed, it's one of my new favorites!) and I could even make out the tails of NGC 3718.

 

Even globulars were a challenge for them, but most of them could at least see the mottled appearance of M13 at 125x, if not resolve it into individual stars. The good part is that most of my friends wanted to spend more time looking at the galaxies to see more detail, so as a side project I might try to compare their descriptions of different objects as we go out more often and they develop more observing experience.

Edited by Brain&Force, 11 May 2025 - 03:38 PM.