39 replies to this topic

[jamku]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

[robbieg147]

Well I do it so there are no hanging cables, everything moves together. Also to remove the scope there are just two cables to disconnect, the USB and power cables to the back of the Dec axis.

[hyiger]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

Not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you comparing a laptop running NINA directly connected to the camera and mount versus say an ASIAir? 

 

When it's in my back yard there is a hard wired ethernet connection into my house from my Mele-PC running NINA. I then use remote desktop to connect to it. When I'm at the "dark site" I'm 10' away in my car, again with a wired connection or WiFi connected to my ASIAir. In both cases though I'm using a remote app to connect to the computer (either an ASIAir App or Remote Desktop connected to my Mele-PC running NINA). 

Edited by hyiger, 27 April 2025 - 12:41 PM.

[jamku]

Not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you comparing a laptop running NINA directly connected to the camera and mount versus say an ASIAir? 

 

When it's in my back yard there is a hard wired ethernet connection into my house from my Mele-PC running NINA. I then use remote desktop to connect to it. When I'm at the "dark site" I'm 10' away in my car, again with a wired connection or WiFi connected to my ASIAir. In both cases though I'm using a remote app to connect to the computer (either an ASIAir App or Remote Desktop connected to my Mele-PC running NINA). 

Sorry I was unclear, not a native english speaker.. Comparison I'm making is,

1. rpi/mini pc on telescope mount, runs planetarium and device control software, user remotes in to that
2. rpi/mini pc on telescope mount, runs indi/ascom server, user connects to those from a computer that runs planetarium and device control software

1. seems to be what every one does but to me 2. seems like the more efficient way to do it?

 

@robbieg147 number of cables hanging off of anything should be the same in either case.

[btschumy]

I always do #2.  I use INDI (KStars/Ekos) from an indoor desktop computer to talk to the mini computer at the scope.  I find the UI is much more responsive this way.  I only VNC to the mini when doing maintenance.

[exsomet]

Regarding “why does everyone do it this way”, there’s probably some bias towards a particular setup being popular because that’s simply the most common way that people learn to do it when they start out reading blogs and watching how-tos.

[Charlie B]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

Connection problems mostly.  If my remote disconnects, the computer at the telescope still works.

 

Best regards,

Charlie B

[jamku]

Regarding “why does everyone do it this way”, there’s probably some bias towards a particular setup being popular because that’s simply the most common way that people learn to do it when they start out reading blogs and watching how-tos.

I guess running everything on one machine and then remoting into that with vnc or such is just easier to set up.

On the other hand if I only put the drivers/servers on a machine that stays with the telescope, computational power requirement on that machine is about that of an acabus which seems attractive considering budget-limited setups..

[Der_Pit]

I'm doing both.  The 'main rig' has a mini-PC running INDI, and I connect via network to the INDI server to control devices etc.  The actual acquisition software (KStars/EKOS in my case) runs on my laptop in the house.  Thre's some limitations involved there:  You do need a fast and reliable network connection, else your session dies.  Downloading images can take substantially longer.  But I have them on my laptop right away and can already do fun stuff with them during the session.  If you have a mount that needs fast guiding slow network could be an issue (delay between error measure (exposure) and guide pulse).  I wouldn't want to run this via wireless...

 

The smaller one I run on a Pi4.  Also INDI and KStars/EKOS, but both on the Pi.  So the system can/will run all by itself, network is only needed to start the session, once it runs I can disconnect.  As everything is on the Pi, the session will continue even if the Pi loses network.

[Bob Denny]

If you plan to hands-off automate your acquisition with an automation app, then with your option #1, a loss of connectivity will not interrupt the imaging sequence.

Edited by Bob Denny, 27 April 2025 - 03:30 PM.

[hyiger]

Sorry I was unclear, not a native english speaker.. Comparison I'm making is,

1. rpi/mini pc on telescope mount, runs planetarium and device control software, user remotes in to that
2. rpi/mini pc on telescope mount, runs indi/ascom server, user connects to those from a computer that runs planetarium and device control software

1. seems to be what every one does but to me 2. seems like the more efficient way to do it?

 

@robbieg147 number of cables hanging off of anything should be the same in either case.

Ah OK. I most definitely prefer #1 since as @Bob Denny pointed out there is less risk of losing your session if the network drops. I've tried #2 where I had my Mac use Kstars/EKOS to connect to a Mele-PC running an INDI server but it was a much more degraded experience than simply using remote desktop and NINA. 

[DirtyRod]

In addition to avoiding the connection issues mentioned by Charlie B, I’d also mention flexibility. I can monitor either of the rigs I have running from my phone or tablet from anywhere around the house, backyard, garage, etc. I’ve even shut sessions from the bed after waking up and seeing clouds. 
 

In my case, I also run multiple rigs on multiple mounts, some ASIAir, and one Nina. Leaving it on the OTA makes it much easier to swap OTAs around.

Edited by DirtyRod, 27 April 2025 - 04:18 PM.

[BrentKnight]

I do both at the same time.  My mini at the mount runs Sharpcap and it uses the virtual driver provided by Alpaca for the mount.  I don't virtualize the camera drivers though.  My mini inside the house connects to the mini at the mount and operates Sharpcap and the guiding software remotely. 

 

I use SkySafari inside running on Bluestacks and use the Alpaca driver for connecting to the mount.  Usually I just like using SkySafari to monitor the movement of the mount, but I can also use it to do GoTo's (I do live-viewing EAA).  There is no draw on the remote mini doing it this way and SkySafari runs significantly faster.  Also no conflicts with the mount connected to both Sharpcap and SkySafari at the same time.

[Cliff Hipsher]

Flame Spray at will.  I have my Nomex on..

 

I've used ASCOM/NINA as well as INDI/Ekos and I don't care for either one of them for the simple fact that the User Interfaces clutter up a single monitor and make it difficult to setup and manage the imaging system.

 

Secondly,  other than an ASI Air Plus,  I have found no single device that is lightweight, small enough to attach to a finder shoe, and sells at moderate cost that will manage the mount, control and power cooled cameras, dew heaters, focus motors, and camera angle rotators by itself.

 

Third, connecting remotely to an  Air using Station Mode is much easier then using Remote Desktop Sharing, VPN, Google Desktop  Remote, or AnyDesk to connect to a Windows or Linux box.

 

Fourth, because Air can be connected to my home WiFi, I can use use either an Android or an iOS device to monitor the imaging process from the comfort of my living room.

 

The only real pitfall (and its not an issue for me) is that using an Air locks you into the ZWO eco system.

[chvvkumar]

My main reason is, cables are more reliable than WiFi as I don't have ethernet at my imaging location. Also, my desktop is always doing something and some of the things I do on it sometimes require it to reboot. This is obviously a no-go for imaging use. Better to have dedicated local control independent of my primary computer. This frees up both, my main computer and the imaging computer to do their thing without affecting the other's functionality.

[Rasfahan]

Your setup #2 adds many additional points of failure (LAN connectivity, sleep/power save issues of the controlling computer, additional (critical) wires, bugs in the network layer of the control software).

With setup #1 you can manage with a single cable (power) running up the mount.

My Epsilon kind of wants 30s exposures for L and at 60MP download overhead becomes significant.

My SW mount needs a 1s guiding cadence - latency becomes an issue there.

 

Let me ask the other way around: What is the advantage of setup #2?

[jamku]

Let me ask the other way around: What is the advantage of setup #2?

Lower requirements and cost assuming there's already a capable computer in the house?

 

I'm not disputing the advantages of running imaging locally. For now I'm not outright dismissing the remote option either.

 

What additional wires does #2 require assuming you're remote accessing the local machine in #1 anyway?

[jamku]

Fourth, because Air can be connected to my home WiFi, I can use use either an Android or an iOS device to monitor the imaging process from the comfort of my living room.

For simply monitoring, this is really convenient https://www.ap-i.net.../ccdciel_status

[Rasfahan]

Lower requirements and cost assuming there's already a capable computer in the house?

 

I'm not disputing the advantages of running imaging locally. For now I'm not outright dismissing the remote option either.

 

What additional wires does #2 require assuming you're remote accessing the local machine in #1 anyway?

The RPi you need is about the same as a cheap mini PC. The hardware requirements are very low for software like NINA or Voyager or Ekos/Indi. I ran my setup with a 2013 NUC until middle of last year when it finally broke.

 

A LAN cable. Using wireless is not reliable enough at all because your session will end if you have a connectivity drop out. For Remote Desktop (or VNV, etc.), wireless is fine.

Edited by Rasfahan, 28 April 2025 - 12:48 PM.

[jamku]

The RPi you need is about the same as a cheap mini PC. The hardware requirements are very low for software like NINA or Voyager or Ekos/Indi. I ran my setup with a 2013 NUC until middle of last year when it finally broke.

 

A LAN cable. Using wireless is not reliable enough at all because your session will end if you have a connectivity drop out. For Remote Desktop (or VNV, etc.), wireless is fine.

For sure, I've been using old laptops about that old, and older. I'm not seeing mini pc's anywhere that wouldn't cost more than at least twice an rpi capable of running the servers though.

incidentally, I've had my eq mount connected to the laptop running indi/kstars/ekos over wifi for a few years now, I ordered an eqdir cable and they accidentally sent the more expensive wireless version. Zero benefit as cameras are wired anyway so the computer is less than a meter away and I found no use for the mobile app, but anyway, it has worked fine.

[Rasfahan]

For sure, I've been using old laptops about that old, and older. I'm not seeing mini pc's anywhere that wouldn't cost more than at least twice an rpi capable of running the servers though.

incidentally, I've had my eq mount connected to the laptop running indi/kstars/ekos over wifi for a few years now, I ordered an eqdir cable and they accidentally sent the more expensive wireless version. Zero benefit as cameras are wired anyway so the computer is less than a meter away and I found no use for the mobile app, but anyway, it has worked fine.

Considering the cost of the rest of the setup, the difference of €40 between a RPi and a N4125-based mini PC is negligible.

[dghent]

Quibbling over the cost differences of < $800 class mini-PCs, and certainly the cheapest ones in the (pre-tariff) $200-$300 range is, to be blunt, a pointless and non-insightful exercise. If $50 or $100 one way or the other for a primary component is going to be so financially burdensome and a source of angst and hand-wringing, then this isn't the hobby one will want to be in. Visual astronomy has a far lower and far more occasional cost to it, so I suggest one goes that route instead. Or buy data.

 

As for imaging/control PCs and how people tend to use them, I think I've seen it all. I'm partial to keeping it all local to the hardware. MiniPCs are both powerful and small enough to integrate will with most rigs, either on the OTA itself, on the mount, or nearby such as clamped to a tripod's leg or pier's side. It keeps the USB cables short. A high-end Celeron-family or N100/300-series system with 10-15W TDP will sip power and be friendly towards suitably-sized yet financially-accessible LiFePO4 battery packs, where a 30-50Ah capacity battery will assuredly get you through a full winter night. It'll be plenty powerful enough to run your imaging software and plop files onto disk.

 

The arrangement that makes me groan the most are the ones where the operator feels that the PC absotively, posilutely must be connected to the equipment even though 100m of wire distance and two buildings might separate the two. These are the folks who first try the extra long USB cables, then try some variation of long active USB extension, both of which tend to be failure-prone or makes the setup just that much more fragile. If those don't work, then the next option is throw down 1k+ clams for an Icron setup. But the thing there is that the Icron boxes take up just as much physical space as your typical mini-PC, also require power and hardwire network be ran to them, and they can still have issues with some USB devices. At that point, one should just put a mini-PC there instead for half the cost and gain generally better reliability in the process. The whole "my on-mount equipment must be a physically-connected extension of the PC that's in front of me" schtick is one schtick I'll gladly stay away from.

[Bob Denny]

 

Quibbling over the cost differences of < $800 class mini-PCs, and certainly the cheapest ones in the (pre-tariff) $200-$300 range is, to be blunt, a pointless and non-insightful exercise. If $50 or $100 one way or the other for a primary component is going to be so financially burdensome and a source of angst and hand-wringing, then this isn't the hobby one will want to be in. Visual astronomy has a far lower and far more occasional cost to it, so I suggest one goes that route instead. Or buy data.

100% agreed. As my grampa said: "It only costs a little more to go first class". (not true of the airlines!!!!). Reminds me of the old days when guys would spend thousands on "stereo" gear then put 6" speakers on it. Kinda the other way around but still the unbalance is the point.

 

As for the second point, I agree too. 

Edited by Bob Denny, 28 April 2025 - 08:06 PM.

[jamku]

 this isn't the hobby one will want to be in

Good thing then that you don't get to decide on other people's hobbies I guess? What a weird sentiment.

[m.takahasi]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

I think the bigger reason: there were limitations in the network and recording media for transferring images from the camera.
Now that SSDs are mainstream, it is much easier to record images to a local PC via USB.
On the other hand, networks have also become faster, but even ASCOM Remote and INDI are not good at transferring images over networks.
My conclusion is to use client software with built-in camera sdk like NINA or Firecapture.
I also have a usb/ip server running on the raspberry pi and a virtual USB connection on the laptop.
Fortunately, the mount and focuser can be connected wireless, so it works very well.
Since the GPSD socket is also running on the Raspberry Pi at the same time, location information can be used in NINA, making it more convenient.

Edited by m.takahasi, 29 April 2025 - 01:26 AM.