37 replies to this topic

[dghent]

Good thing then that you don't get to decide on other people's hobbies I guess? What a weird sentiment.

I'm saying what I'm saying as a person engaged in the role of software developer, technical support, vendor liaison, and advisory aspects in this pursuit for many years. Not as long as some but, I feel, long enough to have seen a decent population of rash or poorly-considered decisions bare themselves out in various forums, venues, and on my own doorstep. The majority of these are honest mistakes which could have been avoided by doing a little more research or question-asking, or saving a little more $ to get a higher-quality component rather than spending less $ for something that turned out to be il-suited. But there are definitely also the real doozies, such as those who seek help for their situation but also try their best to hide or obfuscate the real reason why they're having a chronic problem which of course makes actually helping them next to impossible. People hate admitting to mistakes, especially mistakes where money is involved because no one wants to look like a chump. Many people have entered and then left this hobby exactly because they ground-floored with gear that was really a bad fit for their skills or was of poor quality. They spent more time trying to get it to work than reaching something close to their end-goal and the prospect of spending more to correct the mistake wasn't bearable thought. This is why things like the ASIAir and all-in-one telescopes are now so popular. They remove a lot of effort and much of risk. The loss of capability isn't important, at least not early on. The fewer moving parts, the better. They learn and grow into it and progress into more complex setups later.

[joshman]

honestly for me...simplicity is the key to a robust and reliable system. The way you propose introduces IMHO unnecessary complications and potential points of failure, it would be annoying to try and travel with such a system as well.

 

Why over-complicate things by splitting the running of your rig between multiple devices? that is asking for integration and reliability issues long term. The day that every astro device becomes alpaca and POE based, is the day that I *might* adopt a different stance, but probably not.

 

For what its worth, i use a MiniPC mounted on my OTA, everything is wired directly to it, then I have a single power and Ethernet cable going up to it. The other end of the Ethernet is connected to a travel router that is setup as an extension of my home wifi network. it also broadcasts its own wifi network. That way if, for whatever reason, my home network goes down, I can still access the travel router and RDP into the imaging platform if needed, but it will continue to run without me needing to do that. Short of a mains power failure (which is very easy to work around), my system is completely stand alone and isolated from most quibbles.

 

simple. robust. reliable.

[MikeECha]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

I have a mini pc under a good cover at the mount that runs ASCOM Remote Server and all the drivers for the equipment. That is it. Then, I run NINA, Stellarium, PHD2 and ASTAP in a laptop inside the house. The images are saved in the minipc HD first and then sent to my storage PC inside over Wifi using Robocopy function in NINA. All works flawlessly.

 

The only downside of this could be your network connection stability over Wifi but I do not have problems with that.

[Cliff Hipsher]

Good thing then that you don't get to decide on other people's hobbies I guess? What a weird sentiment.

Basically what dghent said was spot on.  This is not a hobby were one can be successful on the cheap and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of "hobby killer" products that prove the point, and this truth applies to more that just astronomy.  I have seen similar things happen in the Radio Controlled world with cheap radios and models and the glut of toy drones masquerading as high dollar long range GPS assisted aircraft.

 

On the personal side of this, at one time I was the victim of my own enthusiasm and ignorance.  I was in over my head and I wasted nearly 2 years before I admitted my folly.

 

Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) 4 years ago I received a rather sizeable personal inquiry settlement from a motorcycle accident (another "hobby" that is I do not recommend for the financially challenged). 

 

Not only was I able to replace my trike, but I also bought my first "real" telescope and mount. 

 

Recalling my previous disaster of trying to get into AP with a cobbled together "system," I knew going in that I was not going to use a laptop at the mount,  I was not going to use ASCOM and I was not going to use RDS..  What I wanted was an all-in-one solution that included not only mount and camera control, but also included dew heater control, image data storage,  automated polar alignment functionality (polar alignment scopes suck), auto guiding functionality and support for a focus motor, and a motorized filter wheel.  This device needed to be small enough to attach to the telescope, it needed to be reasonably priced and it needed to run on 12VDC.

 

My first candidate was Stellarmate.  On the surface is seemed to meet my requirements with one exception:  NO dew heater support.  USB heaters were available, but I consider them to be a gimmick for the simple fact that a USB port is limited to 500mA and 2.5 watts of power which I believe is woefully inadequate.  Another issue is USB dew heaters are not readily modifiable to meet my requirements for cable management.  I had also looked into using a NUC, but here again it did not meet my cable management requirements, it required adding a powered USB hub and it required a separate 19VDC power source.

 

I chose an ASI Air Plus, and I went from this:  

 

To this: 

 

The point of this is you cannot turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

 

Having said that, I am aware of the fact that other than mounts, Air cannot talk to non-ZWO hardware.  Some see that as a downside but I see it as a plus because I don't have to worry about driver management. 

[gordtulloch]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

I run Stellarmate (INDI) on a MiniPC on my mount so it can run independently.  EKOS runs a schedule that performs all of the required functions to open the roof, unpark the scope, slew to objects, move the filters, focus, rotate, plate solve, and image. That all happens via the local machine whether I'm watching or not. Often this is controlled by a Python script that watches the weather and invokes the EKOS schedule when the roof is safe to open.

 

The biggest reasons to run everything on a local computer are 1. It keeps working if there is a network issue (which happens on wireless) and 2. Local download of images to a SSD is way faster than transmitting them over the network. Guiding specifically is better done locally although PHD2 does support it over the network via INDI. 

[gordtulloch]

My first candidate was Stellarmate.  On the surface is seemed to meet my requirements with one exception:  NO dew heater support.  USB heaters were available, but I consider them to be a gimmick for the simple fact that a USB port is limited to 500mA and 2.5 watts of power which I believe is woefully inadequate.  Another issue is USB dew heaters are not readily modifiable to meet my requirements for cable management.  I had also looked into using a NUC, but here again it did not meet my cable management requirements, it required adding a powered USB hub and it required a separate 19VDC power source.

 

There are a number of dew heater controller options available with INDI drivers - I use the WandererBox Pro V3 on my rig which eliminates a dew controller and USB hub. Piggybacked on this is a Beelink MIniPC S connects to the WB via 12v output on the WB although it also has an 18v output.

[Cliff Hipsher]

There are a number of dew heater controller options available with INDI drivers - I use the WandererBox Pro V3 on my rig which eliminates a dew controller and USB hub. Piggybacked on this is a Beelink MIniPC S connects to the WB via 12v output on the WB although it also has an 18v output.

You missed a couple of points.  At the time that I was shopping  Stellarmate sold for $299.00 and so did an Air Plus.  Stellarmate does not have built in dew heater control.  Air Plus does.

 

So why should I buy a Stellarmate and spend well over $100.00 for an external dew heater controller when the functionality provided by that accessory is built into and ASI Air Plus? And this same logic holds true for buying a powered USB hub.  Air Plus has 2 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.0 ports, and when you add a cooled camera you get 2 more USB 2.0 ports.  

 

If memory serves Air Plus was on the market 2 years before your precious Wanderbox was and ZWO was shipping Air Plus before Wander Astro was founded, so that dog don't hunt. 

 

From a Google search:

 

"Founded in 2021, WandererAstro is a professional manufacturer dedicated to motorized flat panel, rotator, powerbox and various astrophotography equipment."

 

"The ZWO ASI AIR Plus started shipping in November 2021. It was developed to address the limited WiFi range of its predecessor, the AS IAIR Pro, by including an external antenna. It was announced in September 2021 and was widely reviewed in late 2021, with many first impressions appearing in October of that year."

 

"The Wanderer Box Pro V3 was manufactured and available for purchase in late 2023 and early 2024, according to one user's videohttps://www.youtube....h?v=N0u2Q48Psxc. The video also mentions that the user purchased the device and used it in January and February 2024, as per their videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0u2Q48Psxc. Furthermore, the company was founded in 2021, and version two of the Wanderer Box was manufactured in 2023, as mentioned in another videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du1MmFs8R_k. "

 

The bottom line is, as a result of my previous failures this time I did my homework before I broke out the plastic.  I bought exactly what I needed and I actually came out under budget.

 

 At this particular point I have 3 separate "systems" that are controlled by Air Plus controllers.

[gordtulloch]

You missed a couple of points.  At the time that I was shopping  Stellarmate sold for $299.00 and so did an Air Plus.  Stellarmate does not have built in dew heater control.  Air Plus does.

 

So why should I buy a Stellarmate and spend well over $100.00 for an external dew heater controller when the functionality provided by that accessory is built into and ASI Air Plus? And this same logic holds true for buying a powered USB hub.  Air Plus has 2 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.0 ports, and when you add a cooled camera you get 2 more USB 2.0 ports.  

 

If memory serves Air Plus was on the market 2 years before your precious Wanderbox was and ZWO was shipping Air Plus before Wander Astro was founded, so that dog don't hunt. 

 

From a Google search:

 

"Founded in 2021, WandererAstro is a professional manufacturer dedicated to motorized flat panel, rotator, powerbox and various astrophotography equipment."

 

"The ZWO ASI AIR Plus started shipping in November 2021. It was developed to address the limited WiFi range of its predecessor, the AS IAIR Pro, by including an external antenna. It was announced in September 2021 and was widely reviewed in late 2021, with many first impressions appearing in October of that year."

 

"The Wanderer Box Pro V3 was manufactured and available for purchase in late 2023 and early 2024, according to one user's videohttps://www.youtube....h?v=N0u2Q48Psxc. The video also mentions that the user purchased the device and used it in January and February 2024, as per their videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0u2Q48Psxc. Furthermore, the company was founded in 2021, and version two of the Wanderer Box was manufactured in 2023, as mentioned in another videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du1MmFs8R_k. "

 

The bottom line is, as a result of my previous failures this time I did my homework before I broke out the plastic.  I bought exactly what I needed and I actually came out under budget.

 

 At this particular point I have 3 separate "systems" that are controlled by Air Plus controllers.

I was pointing out the fact when you said "NO dew heater support" (for the benefit of people who might be considering using something other than ZWO gear) you are just flat wrong. For that matter there's a Stellarmate appliance with similar ports. We're talking about modern equipment.

 

Enjoy your ASI Air stuff.
 

Edited by gordtulloch, 01 May 2025 - 08:45 PM.

[Cliff Hipsher]

I was pointing out the fact when you said "NO dew heater support" (for the benefit of people who might be considering using something other than ZWO gear) you are just flat wrong. For that matter there's a Stellarmate appliance with similar ports. We're talking about modern equipment.

 

Enjoy your ASI Air stuff.
 

You missed it again.  An Air Plus is modern equipment and I am talking about the Benefit to Cost ratio of buying one controller over another.

 

The Stellarmate PRO 128gig has 4 12VDC ports, 2 dew heater ports, 1 "variable voltage" port, and it costs $499.00 which is $149.00 more than a 256gig Air Plus.

 

From my perspective the cost to benefit ratio of buying a Stellarmate Pro over an Air Plus is upside down.

 

And from an operational standpoint, setting up and using an Air is much easier and more intuitive than setting up and using a mini-PC running Windows and ASCOM.  BTDT, burned the T-Shirt.

 

When I started down this road I bought a mini-pc and installed all of the ASCOM stuff, NINA and Stellarium.  I used Google remote desktop to connect the mount to my tower PC.

 

The "system"  was tempermentel and clunky so I wiped the drive, installed a linux/ubuntu distro and loaded Stellarmate OS.  This was better, but only slightly. The Stellarmate OS ran fine but the KStars UI was just plain ugly.  I still needed a dew heater controller, I had to add a powered USB hub and cable management was a nightmare so I ripped it apart and bought my first Air Plus.

 

Finally I had a rig that worked. I didn't have to run an RDS app, cable management was a piece of cake,  and I could do everything with an Android tablet in the comfort of my living room.

 

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is, Air gives me more bang for the buck, I don't need to fool around with RDS or some other desktop sharing kludge,

[Napp]

Moderator here.  Let's stay on topic - "Why run imaging software locally?".  If you want to compare individual products you should open a new topic.

[PIEJr]

When I first began, oh 11 years ago, I had individual cables bundled into and umbilical cord dropping off my mount. One huge bunch of wires.

A friend suggested I use a powered hub.

So I got one. And I decided to put the hub up on my telescope where all the cables were anyway. Then a single USB cable to my laptop.

So I condensed things to a single USB cable, and a single 12 volt power wire (+/-). (Powers the hub and mount and anything else 12 volt.)

 

I've operated that way for... forever.

 

Another friend of mine who is handicapped told me about his remote operating from his "Bat Cave" (Basement).

I'd thought about remote, but hadn't gone any further.

So I tried that, but decided to find something free to use and found Tight Vnc. And I've used it for around 10 years. Still do.

 

Over the years I've upgraded routers as times gone by. But for a number of years now I've been a WiFi remote Astrophotography operator. Love it.

(If you consider ~75 feet remote operation. ;^) It's a lot warmer than sittin out back.)

 

But I have mostly used a hub and a laptop as my mount computer running the entire mount, and connected via WiFi to the mount from indoors.

No need of anything like an Air or other "Johnny come lately stuff."

 

Last year I went in whole hog with NINA and now I get things running in NINA and go to bed and in the morning I have my image files and my telescope is parked. Fini.

I'll sort, stack, and save the nights files with the laptop while keeping my inside computer available for things like Email or Cloudy Nights.

 

That's how I roll.

[ngc2218]

I've always had a laptop next to the telescope, running planetarium and imaging software, and so far I've never operated that remotely - it wouldn't contribute much in my use case. But I've been thinking of trying that in the future, and it seems to me that everyone has a computer, be it a mini pc, asiair, stellarmate, on the scope running all the software, and then you remote in to that with vnc or otherwise. But why is that? With indi, and with ascom/alpaca as far as I know, the machine on the telescope can just run the device driver/server and then your ccdciel/kstars/whatever can run on a computer inside and connect to those over lan/wifi.

 

It looks like no one does it that way - I'm assuming for a good reason but I don't see what it is?

I tried all options over the years, and the best option for me was a primaluce NUC that also has the power delivery included. I took the medium priced one, and added more ram and bigger storage. Installed NINA on it, and everything works reliably.

Edited by ngc2218, 09 May 2025 - 04:14 AM.

[EdDixon]

Option #1 for me.

 

MiniPC is a small plastic box with Removable SSD and cables.  A wireless router is in the box that velcros to a tripod leg.  Only a single USB connect to scope setup that has a powered USB hub on tripod leg that collects data from scope, cameras, guider, focuser, PA camera.

 

I use a Jackery for power to all.  One connection to mount for main power and two connections for Wifi and miniPC.

 

I use VNC to remote in from either the house (when home), or from the car at remote sites.  I have a separate miniPC setup and LED display I use when in the car.

 

At 76, being outside in the hot or cold is much harder than it was 10 years ago.  The same is true for weight, as light gear makes a LOT of difference.