40 replies to this topic

[paulsky]

Hello,
Yesterday there was a general blackout (of unknown origin according to the government) in Spain and Portugal... a full-blown Bortle 1? Or which? 

Cheers, 

Paul

[afd33]

It sounds like it was the entire country, so yeah, it would be bortle 1 in most places. In the major cities there might be enough places with generators that could produce light pollution to make it something else.

[Olimad]

I'm in Madrid and had high expectations for the blackout. I prepared everything — more stars were visible to the naked eye, and the view through the eyepiece was much better than usual, but can't scale It.

But electricity returned neighborhood by neighborhood during the evening (so it was never anywhere near Bortle 1...), and at 23:15, it was my neighborhood’s turn. In a split second, the stars and the globular cluster I was observing vanished… back to normality.

But I had a nice 30 minutes observation.

[Sebastian_Sajaroff]

It'd be Bortle 1 as long as you're in the middle of the blackout area, there are no other light sources around (buildings running on generators), no Moon and good transparency.

Two years ago, we had a state wide (Quebec, Canada) blackout after a massive ice storm.

My typically Bortle 8-9 backyard upgraded to Bortle 5, massive difference at all levels (naked eye, binoculars and telescope).

The most striking was naked eye.

Why wasn't it a Bortle 1 ? There were several buildings still running on generators, 50% lit Moon and the usual Saint-Lawrence damp.

Edited by Sebastian_Sajaroff, 29 April 2025 - 02:17 PM.

[bunyon]

I had a similar experience after Fran in 1996. It wasn’t a complete blackout but enough that I had a couple of great nights on a patio in the middle of Durham NC.

[Olimad]

I didn’t have enough time or sky access to fully appreciate it, but I’d guess the Bortle level was slightly worse than at my summer house (which is Bortle 4/5). I’d say last night’s sky was probably around Bortle 5/6, during 30 minutos.

Edited by Olimad, 29 April 2025 - 02:09 PM.

[Tony Flanders]

Most experienced observers don't take Bortle ratings very seriously. But there's nearly uniform agreement that the distinction between Bortle 1 and 2 has little or nothing to do with light pollution and a great deal to do with transparency. Absence of artificial light pollution -- and moonlight, of course -- does not guarantee that you will be able to see the entire zodiacal band, which is part of John Bortle's definition of Class 1 skies.

[Olimad]

It wasn't a rolling blackout — the whole of Spain and Portugal were affected. However, power was gradually restored, and Madrid was one of the last regions to be fully reconnected."

Only M3

Edited by Olimad, 29 April 2025 - 12:13 PM.

[Jhunt]

I'm jealous. I would love for my city to lose power for a day or two at night. 

[Takuan]

This blackout confirmed my suspicions about the sources of light pollution.
The bad news this time (from our selfish perspective) is that the outage occurred at noon, and by nightfall in my city (Barcelona), power had already been restored to ~40-50% of the neighborhoods.
The thing is, the airport and seaport (and their surroundings extremely overlit) were already at 100% when I went up to the roof. It was 22:45 , and the sky quality was very poor.
It was the kind of night I don't normally observe: 100% humidity. On such nights in the big city, the SQM-L reading at the zenith is usually 17.3-17.4. Last night it was 17.8. Without the port and airport lights, despite the humidity, the sky would have been much darker, no doubt.
How much, I'll probably never know, necause a blackout like that will hardly happen again in my lifetime.

Edited by Takuan, 29 April 2025 - 01:44 PM.

[sevenofnine]

A long time ago, there was a blackout in Los Angeles, California. People were panicked. The 911 switchboards were flooded with calls about a huge cloud hovering over the city. Could it be poisonous gas? What could be causing this shimmering cloud? City folks had never seen the Milky Way 

Edited by sevenofnine, 29 April 2025 - 02:08 PM.

[NinePlanets]

Blackouts don't turn off the automobile headlights.

[George N]

I'm jealous. I would love for my city to lose power for a day or two at night. 

The last time we had a 2-night area wide blackout - nice August warm and **clear** nights -- it was Full Moon.  

[moefuzz]

Hello,
Yesterday there was a general blackout (of unknown origin according to the government) in Spain and Portugal... a full-blown Bortle 1? Or which? 

Cheers, 

Paul

 

 

A recent map of what dark skies and what potential bortel 1 looked like for the hours of the blackout in Spain and Portugal.

At the time of the satellite image Barcelona and some coastline and ports had at least minimal lighting while the remainder of the two countries remained virtually black.

 

 

Edited by moefuzz, 30 April 2025 - 12:51 AM.

[Olimad]

Thanks, Moe.

But I have some doubts about this map, because the north and south of Spain already had power by 20:00.

Parts of the Madrid region had electricity again by 21:00.
Also, there was never a blackout in the Balearic Islands.

Twillight at 22:30.

This map seems not accurate to me.

Edited by Olimad, 30 April 2025 - 03:24 AM.

[moefuzz]

The satellite IMAGE is NOT A MAP is what it is.

It doesn't state a time so we have no clue in how fast or in what districts the lights returned over the evening but for the most of the country it appears that the ports and port cities were first to start to regain power (or possibly were generating their own power).

Again, there is no time line attached to the satellite image so assumptions of what happened before during or after the satellite image was captured are only as reliable as the times as they progressed.

 

As is the norm with this type of satellite image, ground penetrating radar is used so in essence the satellite sees no cloud no rain no dust storms and no "100%" humidity all of which would skew a local ground based observers perceptions of what darkness should look like.

 

Looking around the perimeters of the image you can see outlying islands  of the Mediterranean still have power but the tiny state of Gibraltar is dark.

 

Oli, are you saying that the black out as reported by the news was a conspiracy theory? or less severe than our "trusted" news agencies were reporting?

Or possibly that the twilight hours interfered with seeing over and above local atmosphere and  weather conditions?

Edited by moefuzz, 30 April 2025 - 06:02 AM.

[Olimad]

Of course, the blackout was severe — the entire Iberian Peninsula was affected. But:

 

1- The Balearic and Canary Islands were never affected, as they are not connected to the Iberian power grid. So seeing them marked as blacked out on this map is quite questionable. Maybe you could compare this map of the Balearic Islands with one from another night to see if there are any differences.

 

2-The blackout began around noon. By late afternoon, part of southern Spain (Andalusia) and northern regions (Catalonia and the Basque Country) had already regained electricity.

 

3- Twillight at approximately 22:30 (Madrid). 

 

The return to normal was gradual. The central part of the Iberian Peninsula, including Madrid, recovered during the night — public lights in my area (central Madrid) were back on by 23:15.

 

So yes, I find this map quite questionable. It was a full blackout during the day, but not anymore by night but never was in the balearic islands.

Edited by Olimad, 30 April 2025 - 06:28 AM.

[moefuzz]

Of course, the blackout was severe — the entire Iberian Peninsula was affected. But:

 

1- The Balearic and Canary Islands were never affected, as they are not connected to the Iberian power grid. So seeing them marked as blacked out on this map is quite questionable.

 

 

So yes, I find this map quite questionable. It was a full blackout during the day, but not anymore by night.

The satellite image shows a view or diagonal span or about ~1250 miles with the lower left point being just off shore of Casablanca which places the Canary Islands about 500 miles (800km) to the south west and very far off of the map. -The Canary islands are not represented on this sat image.

 

 

 

No higher resolution or closer detail was available so The satellite image is what it is.

 

 

 

-------------

 

 

3- The sun set at approximately 22:30.

 

 

Local sunset in Madrid (proper) was 2107 / 9:07 pm on April 29

Sunset: 9:07pm
Twi: 9:36pm
Twi Navigational: 10:11pm
Twi Astronomical: 10:50pm

Edited by moefuzz, 30 April 2025 - 03:56 AM.

[Olimad]

The satellite image shows a view or diagonal span or about ~1250 miles with the lower left point being just off shore of Casablanca which places the Canary Islands about 500 miles (800km) off of the map.

Canary islands are not represented on this sat image.

 

Look, Moe — I mentioned both island groups because they were reported as the only two regions not affected by the blackout, since they have their own generation and distribution systems. Of course, the Canary Islands aren't shown on this map, but given how the map was made, I'm quite sure it would have displayed the Canaries as blacked out too.

You should compare this map with the same one from a different night. If there are differences for the Balearic Islands, then there's definitely something wrong with this map.

 

I have no clue as to whether the Balearic islands are or were affected by blackouts but then again, this view is zoomed out quiet far.

 

To be more precise, if you like — the Balearic Islands are connected to the mainland, but they have their own power plants and distribution grid. That’s why they weren’t affected. I assume the connection to the peninsula is only used when necessary. It might have been that, on that day, the Balearic Islands’ system was operating in autarky, and the connection to the mainland was closed. They were lucky. And then, may be, they might have supplied energy to the mainland system.

 

https://www.periodic...ero-existe.html

 

 

No higher resolution or closer detail was available so The satellite image is what it is.

 

 

 

-------------

 

 

 

Local sunset in Madrid (proper) was 2108 / 9:08 pm on April 29

Sunset: 9:08pm
Twi: 9:37pm
Twi Navigational: 10:13pm
Twi Astronomical: 10:51pm

 

I used the stellarium app, and It told me that Twillight was at 22:30 approx 

May be Moe, you should verify, not only my sayings, but also the map itself...

 

https://www.diariode...-116894209.html

 

That is in Spanish, but Google can translate It.

Edited by Olimad, 30 April 2025 - 04:15 AM.

[moefuzz]

It's the size and scale of the satellite image that determines the intensity of light from afar.

 

What you seem to be suggesting is that for some reason somebody faked or modified a satellite image

although I don't know why anyone or any agency would feel the need to do that.

 

 

The satellite image is what it is

Edited by moefuzz, 30 April 2025 - 04:18 AM.

[Olimad]

Where did you get this image. Link please.

 

And make a comparison between a normal night and this image for balearic islands.

 

Then we can talk.

Edited by Olimad, 30 April 2025 - 04:25 AM.

[moefuzz]

Where did you get this image. Link please.

 

And make a comparison between a normal night and this image for balearic islands.

 

Then we can talk.

The images are all over the net

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by moefuzz, 30 April 2025 - 07:12 AM.

[Olimad]

So your source is not raw data, only an image from a user named "amuse".

Find the link to the raw data to verify your sources.

 

You asked for verificación from my side. I have you what my own eyes have seen, what authorities have said, and the reasons why, balearic islands havn't t experimented a black out. Your turn now.

[moefuzz]

So your source is not raw data, only an image from a user named "amuse".

Find the link to the raw data to verify your sources.

 

You asked for verificación from my side. I have you what my own eyes have seen, what authorities have said, and the reasons why, balearic islands havn't t experimented a black out. Your turn now.

the satellite image is just a satellite image

Edited by moefuzz, 30 April 2025 - 07:13 AM.

[Olimad]

Come on, Moe.

 

The satellite image came with a Green circle "net zero", or with White letters "nuclear energy Green energy".

 

Give the link to the provider of the spanish image.

 

https://www.diariode...-116818685.html

 

In the newspaper links I gave you, there are statements from REE about balear.

Edited by Olimad, 30 April 2025 - 05:24 AM.