56 replies to this topic

[symbiosis]

Just wondering if anyone here has gone for the Astronomical League's Messier Certificate. I have 70 objects, which would qualify me for the silver level, but wondering if it makes sense to just wait for the 110 to get gold. Or is it even worth it? Might be nice to have on the wall.

[cliff mygatt]

I like doing the AL programs and have completed 30 or so. The programs give me a goal for my limited observing time.  I would go for it.  

[Bill Weir]

It never occurred  to me to not finish a list of any sort if I started it. Kind of like heading out for a destination and turning around 70% of the way yet claiming you went there. I’ve never understood why the AL gave certificates for 1/2 measures. Not going to happen with the RASC programs. 

 

I encourage you to keep plugging away and don’t worry if it takes you awhile. This is not a race. I believe you will appreciate the certificate more in the end. Yoda this baby.

 

Bill

[symbiosis]

I'm doing it without go-to or even any planetarium software. Just using my books and starhopping, like I started out 30 years ago. That said, I'm closing in on a complete list and it probably does make sense to wait.

Edited by symbiosis, 30 April 2025 - 12:31 PM.

[scott_larry_d]

Go for the gold Scott! The silver award feels a lot like a participation ribbon. For the record I have some of those ribbons and, although participating is fun, it doesn't satisfy the same way as finishing a list does.  

 

I'm with Bill regarding it's not a race so no rush and enjoy your time under the sky with or without a list.

[CosmicWreckingBall]

Just wondering if anyone here has gone for the Astronomical League's Messier Certificate. I have 70 objects, which would qualify me for the silver level, but wondering if it makes sense to just wait for the 110 to get gold. Or is it even worth it? Might be nice to have on the wall.

Hi Scott,

First off, congrats!   It took me 6 years, but i recently completed my Messier certificate and pin (all 110 obects- gold I beleive).  Do I wish I would have paid attention and done the silver first- Yes.  After speaking with Scott, I felt like the logical progression was to do the silver first, which I did not do.  I just zoomed (in six years-haha) to the end.  

I'd also recommend taking a good look at the binocular Messier cert as it requires 50 of the 110 objects and is easy enough to have a pair of binoculars and note it's appearance in a log while completing the former program.  Bino Messier Program Link

Edited by CosmicWreckingBall, 30 April 2025 - 01:25 PM.

[CosmicWreckingBall]

I'm doing it without go-to or even any planetarium software. Just using my books and starhopping, like I started out 30 years ago. That said, I'm closing in on a complete list and it probably does make sense to wait.

That is the proper way to do it I believe.  I'm on the Herschel 400 now and it is SO nice to be able to use the assisted stuff.  Still, I do feel like star hopping the Messier is what helped me to my current level of observing.  

[hfjacinto]

I did it and it was a great accomplishment. Took me 2 years and the hardest object to see was M33. Its large and diffuse and difficult to see from my light polluted skies so I had to go to a dark site and it was just a haze.

 

I took notes of all objects and submitted the notes with my application. I was happy to get the certificate.

[Tony Flanders]

That is the proper way to do it I believe.  I'm on the Herschel 400 now and it is SO nice to be able to use the assisted stuff.  Still, I do feel like star hopping the Messier is what helped me to my current level of observing.

Star-hopping the Messiers is a fine exercise, but it was star-hopping the Herschel 400 that got me really familiar with the sky. There's a mighty lot of constellations with no Messier objects in them.

[geovermont]

Keep on going. You're doing great!

 

I learned a lot doing the list. I did it with my homemade 6 inch f/8 Dobsonian, the Jumbo Pocket Sky Atlas, and small binoculars. I'm currently working the binocular Messier list from Astronomical League. From my only fairly dark sky some of those pesky little galaxies in Virgo and Coma Berenices are not showing themselves, but I'm up to 59 so far (The AL has 76 on their binocular list and you can qualify for the award at 50 I believe). I'm going for the maximum number I can discern. And at least for me with binoculars, M33 was an easy one (but I have seen it many times--I was aware of the surprising faintness).

 

Tony has written of seeing all the Messiers with binoculars or else a very small scope (I forget which), but at least in my Bortle 4 to 5 conditions I am not sure I will achieve that with my 10x50s.

[JoeBlow]

Credit to symbiosis for doing it without go-to. I always felt people doing it with go-to is similar to cheating... What's the general consensus on using go-to to obtain a Messier certificate?

[Tony Flanders]

Tony has written of seeing all the Messiers with binoculars or else a very small scope (I forget which), but at least in my Bortle 4 to 5 conditions I am not sure I will achieve that with my 10x50s.

I'm not sure what "Bortle 4 to 5" means. But my own backyard is definitely Bortle 4 to experienced observers on decent nights by most of John Bortle's criteria. Zenithal skyglow typically around 21.0.

Under such conditions, it's fairly easy to spot all the Messier objects with a 60-mm scope or 15x70 binoculars. Spotting them with 10x50s is much more challenging, especially super-faint ones like M74 and super-small ones like M76 and M57, which are visible but appear almost exactly like stars.

 

With an 8-inch scope it's easy to spot all the Messier objects under much brighter skies than that.

[VA3DSO]

Credit to symbiosis for doing it without go-to. I always felt people doing it with go-to is similar to cheating... What's the general consensus on using go-to to obtain a Messier certificate?

GOTO is a fantastic tool to help people achieve their observing goals (ie: spend more time observing and less time looking) but when it comes to tracking down a list of objects, certainly you'll learn a lot more by doing it yourself.

 

I don't think using GOTO should be considered "cheating" - it's just an easier way to do it that requires less skill. In the end, I think the most important thing is what was actually observed.

[JoeFaz]

Since the purpose of the Messier Observing Program is to familiarize the observer with the nature and location of the objects in the sky, the use of an automated telescope which finds the objects without effort on the part of the observer is not acceptable. “Automated telescope” also includes the use of digital setting circles where a read-out shows the user directions to follow to locate an object. This also includes the unacceptable use of smartphones that use apps to locate objects in the night sky. The use of the setting circles found on the axis of the telescope should also be avoided.  In short, only finder scopes, Telrads, or Telrad-like devices are acceptable.

The reason……?

The purpose of the “no Go-To” rule is so that you learn the sky and learn how to associate a map with the real sky. Learn how to get from here to there without the electronics or the scales. Learn to locate objects without the electronic interface. The knowledge of being able to perform this will always be a benefit in the future.

This is right from the AL's site. Anyone using go-to (even push-to) is indeed "cheating" if they're submitting their observations to the AL. There's nothing wrong with using go-to devices if you like, but in my opinion there's no point in participating in all of the program's the AL has been nice enough to create and maintain if you aren't going to do it under the "rules" they put forward. If you don't like any of the rules they established, use their lists as observing lists for your own enjoyment but don't report them.

Edited by JoeFaz, 01 May 2025 - 06:06 AM.

[symbiosis]

I did it and it was a great accomplishment. Took me 2 years and the hardest object to see was M33. Its large and diffuse and difficult to see from my light polluted skies so I had to go to a dark site and it was just a haze.

 

I took notes of all objects and submitted the notes with my application. I was happy to get the certificate.

I've got some of the hardest objects already including M33. I've just got to get off my lazy behind and get out there during the right seasons. I'm hoping to finish the Virgo galaxies at Cherry Springs SP this year (weather permitting!). I've had a difficult time with them in the past -- just so overwhelming that I don't know what I'm looking at. I need to come up with a good plan and pop them all off in one night. 

[JoeFaz]

I've got some of the hardest objects already including M33. I've just got to get off my lazy behind and get out there during the right seasons. I'm hoping to finish the Virgo galaxies at Cherry Springs SP this year (weather permitting!). I've had a difficult time with them in the past -- just so overwhelming that I don't know what I'm looking at. I need to come up with a good plan and pop them all off in one night. 

The trick with the Virgo galaxies, IMO, is to "galaxy hop" rather than star hop. There are so many galaxies there in a small(ish) area, it's typically easier to identify them with relation to each other than to surrounding stars. For that reason, as you say, if you can do them all in one night it makes things a little less tricky.

[symbiosis]

This is right from the AL's site. Anyone using go-to (even push-to) is indeed "cheating" if they're submitting their observations to the AL. There's nothing wrong with using go-to devices if you like, but in my opinion there's no point in participating in all of the program's the AL has been nice enough to create and maintain if you aren't going to do it under the "rules" they put forward. If you don't like any of the rules they established, use their lists as observing lists for your own enjoyment but don't report them.

This makes me even more interested in the certificate! I assumed I'd be competing against folks who used apps and go-to. 

[JoeFaz]

My experience with the AL's programs has been that the "requirements" aren't there to give you pointless "busywork" at the eyepiece, but they're there to provide some "educational" benefit that gets to the core of the program itself. For example, the Double Star program requires you to estimate the position angles based on your sketches you did at the eyepiece. Doing that 100 times (and then I did it "voluntarily" 100+ more times doing the bino double star programs) has helped improve my double star observing post completion of the programs. Being able to determine PA easily in a matter of seconds has really helped me identify/confirm difficult doubles and/or ones in dense star fields, and wasn't a waste of time to take seriously when doing the AL programs.

[weis14]

I'm always working on a few different AL programs and just need to write up the Messier submission.  I also am almost done with the AL Urban Observing Program (missing one or two objects).  The H400 is next, but I'm adding an additional twist to do as much of it as I can with a 120mm refractor.  Both for the challenge and due to the fact that I no longer have my C9.25.  

[VA3DSO]

I've got some of the hardest objects already including M33. I've just got to get off my lazy behind and get out there during the right seasons. I'm hoping to finish the Virgo galaxies at Cherry Springs SP this year (weather permitting!). I've had a difficult time with them in the past -- just so overwhelming that I don't know what I'm looking at. I need to come up with a good plan and pop them all off in one night. 

You can do all 110 Messier objects in one night every March (Moon and weather permitting). I did that back in the early 2000's with a 10" Dob and some Telrad finder charts specifically for Messier objects. It was a lot of fun, but I don't plan on doing it again. I'd rather take my time and really observe the objects rather than checking them off.

 

[symbiosis]

You can do all 110 Messier objects in one night every March (Moon and weather permitting). I did that back in the early 2000's with a 10" Dob and some Telrad finder charts specifically for Messier objects. It was a lot of fun, but I don't plan on doing it again. I'd rather take my time and really observe the objects rather than checking them off.

 

I was just thinking maybe I should try a Messier Marathon next March, just to check off what's left on the list. In fact, I've used the Harvard Pennington "Year Round Messier Marathon" book for years as a guide to finding the faint fuzzies. But in general, the idea has never much appealed to me for the same reason you suggest -- i.e., that'd I'd rather take my time viewing.

[Mike W]

When I belonged to ASNH in Ct. we had a club event in northeast Ct. Messier Marathon and it was ok but I wouldn't do it again.

[asterope62]

The Messier observing program was the first Astronomical League program that I completed. I would recommend waiting until you observe all of the Messier objects before submitting your observations.  Only the Honorary certificate counts towards other observing levels such as the Observing Certificate and the Master Observer Award. 

[ShaulaB]

I did all 110 with an Edmunds 6 inch f8 between 1986 and 1989. Got the certificate and pin. Yes, it's worth it.

Next, do a Messier Marathon.

[M57Guy]

Just do the entire catalog - 109 or 110 objects depending on you preference.

NGC 5866 = M102 to me, so I did all 110 to be above reproach.

Took me 15 years from start to finish with a lengthy breather in between.

 

Only you will care about the certificate to hang on the wall and only you will have the satisfaction that you actually completed the entire catalog.

 

Go for it!