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Smartscope Astrophotography

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#51 Sun Tzu

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Posted 12 May 2025 - 12:35 PM

Integration Time for Deep Sky Objects

 

When planning astrophotography sessions, the apparent magnitude or surface magnitude of your target deep sky object is a crucial factor in determining the feasibility of capturing it within a reasonable timeframe and the amount of total integration time you should aim for.

 

While there's no strict formula due to the many influencing factors, a general guideline is that for each magnitude fainter you want to capture, you'll need significantly longer integration times (often several times longer) to achieve a comparable signal-to-noise ratio.

 

There is a significant correlation between a deep sky object's apparent magnitude and the minimum integration time required to capture a good image of it in astrophotography.

 

Here's how the correlation works:

 

* Apparent Magnitude and Brightness: Apparent magnitude is a measure of an object's brightness as seen from Earth. Brighter objects have lower (or even negative) magnitude values, while fainter objects have higher magnitude values.

 

* The magnitude scale is logarithmic; a difference of 5 magnitudes corresponds to a brightness difference of 100 times. Therefore, an object with a magnitude of 6 is 100 times fainter than an object with a magnitude of 1.

 

For example,  M 42 (Orion Nebula) with and apparent magnitude of 4 is 126 times brighter than M 100 with an apparent magnitude of 9.3.  Apparent magnitudes can easily be found by simple online searches, apps, etc.

 

* Integration Time and Light Collection: Integration time refers to the total duration of all the individual exposures taken of a target and then stacked together. Longer integration times allow the camera sensor to collect more light from the faint deep sky object.

 

* The Correlation:

 

   * Brighter Objects (Lower Apparent Magnitude): Objects with lower apparent magnitudes emit more light and are therefore easier to capture. They generally require shorter total integration times to reveal their details above the noise in the image.

 

   * Fainter Objects (Higher Apparent Magnitude): Objects with higher apparent magnitudes emit very little light as perceived from Earth. To capture enough photons from these faint objects to create a discernible image with good signal-to-noise ratio, much longer total integration times are necessary. This can range from several hours to tens of hours collected over multiple nights.

 

In essence, the fainter the deep sky object (higher apparent magnitude), the longer the total integration time you will need to collect enough light to produce a good astrophoto.

 

Factors Influencing Minimum Integration Time:

 

While apparent magnitude is a primary factor, other elements also influence the minimum integration time needed:

 

* Telescope Aperture: A larger aperture collects more light in the same amount of time, thus reducing the required integration time for objects of a given magnitude.

* Camera Sensitivity (Read Noise, Quantum Efficiency): More sensitive cameras can capture fainter details with shorter exposures.

 

* Light Pollution: Imaging from light-polluted skies increases the background noise in the images, requiring longer integration times to overcome it and reveal the target object.

* Focal Ratio of the Telescope: Faster focal ratios (lower f-numbers) collect more light per unit area of the sensor in a given time, which is beneficial for faint objects.

* Narrowband Filters: When using narrowband filters to isolate specific emission lines (e.g., from nebulae), the overall amount of light reaching the sensor is reduced, often necessitating longer integration times compared to broadband imaging.

 

* Desired Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR): If you aim for a very clean image with minimal noise and high detail, you will need longer integration times, even for relatively bright objects.

 

Clear skies all


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#52 Sun Tzu

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Posted 13 May 2025 - 09:59 AM

Ever notice the focus changing during an imaging session?   Temperature changes may be the culprit.

 

Temperature Effect on Focus

 

Temperature significantly impacts a scope's focusing in several ways, primarily due to the physical properties of the materials involved. 

 

Thermal Expansion and Contraction:

 

   * Telescope tubes and optical components (lenses and mirrors) expand when heated and contract when cooled. This change in size alters the distances between optical elements, shifting the focal point.

 

   * Even small temperature changes can result in a significant shift in focus.

 

Changes in the Index of Refraction:

 

   * The index of refraction of the glass used in lenses changes with temperature. This means that the way light bends as it passes through the lens is affected by temperature variations, leading to changes in the focal point.

 

   * Also the air within the scope tube has an index of refraction that changes with temperature. This causes the light passing through the tube to bend differently.

 

Tube Currents:

 

   * Temperature differences between the air inside and outside the scope can create air currents within the tube. These currents, known as "tube currents," cause the air to have varying refractive indexes inside the tube. This distorts the light path and blurs the image.

 

   * This effect is more pronounced in larger telescopes but can also affect smaller scopes when there's a significant temperature difference.

 

Dew:

 

   * The closer the air temperature is to the dew point, the higher the humidity, and the more likely dew will form. A general rule of thumb is to start considering dew protection when the temperature is within 5-10°F (3-6°C) of the dew point.

 

A Few Solutions:

 

* Allow your scope to "acclimate" to the ambient temperature before imaging.

 

* Periodically refocus your scope during sessions, especially as temperatures change throughout the night.

 

* When the temperature is dropping: As the night progresses, the air temperature often falls. Keep an eye on the forecast and be prepared to turn on your dew heater if the temperature approaches the dew point.

 

* As a preventative measure: Turn on a dew heater as soon as you set up for the night, especially if you anticipate conditions favorable for dew. It's better to prevent dew from forming than to try and remove it once it has.

 

Clear Skies All


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#53 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 04:34 PM

Was lucky to have 4 almost identical clear nights, no moon, from my city center balcony Bortle 8, Average SQM-L 17.80.

 

My imaging area being restricted by obstacles, I had to focus on single object or framing for 4 nights.

 

It gives an oppportunity to compare a few things.

 

This is shot with my S30. The third night, ZWO updated the firmware to handle flats...

 

RAW, NOT PROCESSED IMAGES

 

COMPARISON THEME No.1 - FLATS : Seestar Stack No Flats vs Seestar Stack with Flats, Drizzled and Resampled Siril Stack No Flats vs Drizzled and Resampled Siril Stack with Flats. NOT PROCESSED. No real difference with stacking in Siril, the only advantage is being able to stack multiple nights.

 

Seestar Stack Flats No Flats vs Siril Stack Flats No Flats Resampled OK.jpg


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 18 May 2025 - 02:08 AM.


#54 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 04:38 PM

COMPARISON THEME No. 2 - ONE TO FOUR NIGHTS SNR : Siril Stack Drizzled x2 for one, two, three and four nights captures. Total imaging time efficiency was 74% in eqmode. Total integration time was respectively cumulated 4.5 hours, 9.2 hours, 14 hours, 18.7 hours. NOT PROCESSED.

 

Siril Stack One to Four nights SNR.jpg


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 17 May 2025 - 04:45 PM.


#55 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 04:40 PM

COMPARISON THEME No. 3 - NO DRIZZLE vs RESAMPLED DRIZZLE vs DRIZZLE FOUR NIGHTS 18.7 HOURS NOT PROCESSED

 

Before BlurX

 

Four nights Seestar Stack vs Siril Drizzle Upsampled vs Drizzle.PNG


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 17 May 2025 - 04:49 PM.


#56 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 04:41 PM

COMPARISON THEME No. 3 - NO DRIZZLE vs RESAMPLED DRIZZLE vs DRIZZLE FOUR NIGHTS 18.7 HOURS NOT PROCESSED

 

After BlurX

 

Four nights Seestar Stack vs Siril Drizzle Upsampled vs  Drizzle BlurX.PNG


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 17 May 2025 - 04:49 PM.


#57 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 04:42 PM

COMPARISON THEME No. 3 - NO DRIZZLE vs RESAMPLED DRIZZLE vs DRIZZLE FOUR NIGHTS 18.7 HOURS NOT PROCESSED

 

After BlurX and NoiseX

 

Four nights Seestar Stack vs Siril Drizzle Upsampled vs  Drizzle BlurX NoiseX.PNG


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 17 May 2025 - 04:49 PM.


#58 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 04:59 PM

MY "IMHO" TAKE AWAYS:

 

- New Flats feature reduce color noise or artifacts

- Integration time in my bortle 8 sky, gives good yield when higher than 4hours, but with more than 14 hours, gains are there but become marginal

- Drizzle allows more "sculpting" with deconvolution and details are well preserved if not enhanced after noise reduction, provided signal is strong like in my four nights example, probably not so for lower integration times as SNR is a bit reduced.

 

What do you think ?

 

Have the same comparison package for the S50 on a different object, are you interested ?


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 17 May 2025 - 05:04 PM.

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#59 Peter Besenbruch

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Posted 17 May 2025 - 09:26 PM

COMPARISON THEME No.1 - FLATS : Seestar Stack No Flats vs Seestar Stack with Flats, Drizzled and Resampled Siril Stack No Flats vs Drizzled and Resampled Siril Stack with Flats. NOT PROCESSED.

 

attachicon.gif Seestar Stack Flats No Flats vs Siril Stack Flats No Flats Resampled OK.jpg

Interesting. I think I like the no flats images better. More time improves everything.



#60 Sun Tzu

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 06:38 AM

MY "IMHO" TAKE AWAYS:

 

- New Flats feature reduce color noise or artifacts

- Integration time in my bortle 8 sky, gives good yield when higher than 4hours, but with more than 14 hours, gains are there but become marginal

- Drizzle allows more "sculpting" with deconvolution and details are well preserved if not enhanced after noise reduction, provided signal is strong like in my four nights example, probably not so for lower integration times as SNR is a bit reduced.

 

What do you think ?

 

Have the same comparison package for the S50 on a different object, are you interested ?

1) I've noticed noise and artifact reduction as well with flats.

2) Ditto to what Peter said...more time is a keystone to improvement. 

3) I don't have any strong opinions/conclusions either way yet on drizzling.  Still experimenting. 


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#61 Sun Tzu

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 06:41 AM

Has anyone seen this ?

 

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=sy3GS4rRnmA

 

Thoughts?



#62 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 07:59 AM

Hi,

 

Here is no drizzle / drizzle comparison on S30 and S50.

 

The S30 being severely undersampled the benefit is quite visible in non stellar objects, also double stars are better resolved. More pixels for indeed more resolution in terms of more detail resolved.

 

Less so for non stellar objects in the S50, which is natively well sampled.

 

Looking at stars only, they are less blocky when drizzled in both devices, however with PC, ipads zoom interpolations, it may not always come through. The profile from core to halo is softer at same zoom levels.

 

These are screenshoots of Pixsinsight environment that represents pixels as they really are. No drizzle, drizzle x2 and resampled, drizzle x2 full resolution.

 

S30

 

Four nights Seestar Stack vs Siril Drizzle Upsampled vs  Drizzle BlurX NoiseX.PNG


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 18 May 2025 - 12:16 PM.


#63 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 08:00 AM

And S50

 

Four nights Seestar Stack vs Siril Drizzle Upsampled vs  Drizzle BlurX NoiseX.PNG

 

Star pixel.jpg


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 18 May 2025 - 08:14 AM.


#64 Stevan Klaas

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 08:45 AM

I think he is comparing well sampled data with well sampled data. Understandably there is just a loss of SNR in non stellar, with as expected nicer stars thanks to their higher SNR.

 

Indeed you need a lot of signal to be “sculpted” like marble by deconvolution, knowing drizzle will cost you SNR. If you just have a “light veil” of signal, there is no much benefit of trading off SNR for Resolution.

 

So probably not fit for shallow stacks with faint fuzzy nebulosities, but rather to carve out thick galaxy arms, globular clusters or deep nebulas.

 

I think the S30 really benefits from it in “standard” seeing, as resolution is quite poor, but you need signal !

 

Has anyone seen this ?

 

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=sy3GS4rRnmA

 

Thoughts?

 


Edited by Stevan Klaas, 18 May 2025 - 02:42 PM.

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#65 Artimon

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Posted 18 June 2025 - 03:33 PM

I also recommand you this to edit your Seestar datas within a free suite:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=kVw-cKl-esA

 

Kr,

Stéphane.


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#66 Sun Tzu

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Posted 18 June 2025 - 05:29 PM

I also recommand you this to edit your Seestar datas within a free suite:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=kVw-cKl-esA

 

Kr,

Stéphane.

It's a nice option. I use Siril/GraXpert and SAS. Frank at Seti Astro does an incredible 1 man job with SAS development and updates. 


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