Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Larger scope = more magnification?

  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#26 azure1961p

azure1961p

    James Webb Space Telescope

  • -----
  • Posts: 15,497
  • Joined: 17 Jan 2009

Posted 14 May 2025 - 10:20 AM

I don't have BIG aperture as you know but I'll say this: the reason that I lost aperture fever (not completely) is the larger exit pupils invite the effects of my astigmatism. Not to say I don't enjoy the low power views , but the stars with their godawful cross shapes really puts me off.  My autism hates it lol.   I like the perfection of stars and my mild astigmatism wrecks it on low powers. Bigger scopes would even force me to endure it.  I like technical, not crosses.  Al Nagler told me once over the phone, even he has it.  Such is us.

 

Cheers.

 

Pete


Edited by azure1961p, 14 May 2025 - 10:21 AM.


#27 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 120,468
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 14 May 2025 - 10:33 AM

 

Do observers who move to larger apertures stick to the same exit pupils they used in the smaller apertures.

 

I observe the same way with all my scopes. I have a full range of eyephieces at my fingertips and then choose the optimal magnification for a particular object on a particular night based on what I see in the eyepieces.

 

Jon


Edited by Jon Isaacs, 14 May 2025 - 10:34 AM.

  • helpwanted likes this

#28 Starman1

Starman1

    Stargeezer

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 70,080
  • Joined: 23 Jun 2003
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 14 May 2025 - 10:47 AM

I don't have BIG aperture as you know but I'll say this: the reason that I lost aperture fever (not completely) is the larger exit pupils invite the effects of my astigmatism. Not to say I don't enjoy the low power views , but the stars with their godawful cross shapes really puts me off.  My autism hates it lol.   I like the perfection of stars and my mild astigmatism wrecks it on low powers. Bigger scopes would even force me to endure it.  I like technical, not crosses.  Al Nagler told me once over the phone, even he has it.  Such is us.

 

Cheers.

 

Pete

There is an easy and obvious answer: wear glasses when you observe.

Without glasses, for me, naked eye stars look like lit Christmas trees.  With glasses, tiny points with no flares.

I see stars looking like comets at exit pupils >2mm without glasses.  With glasses, tiny pinpoints at a 5mm exit pupil.

I'm just sayin'...


Edited by Starman1, 14 May 2025 - 10:47 AM.

  • Jon Isaacs and 25585 like this

#29 TayM57

TayM57

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,150
  • Joined: 15 Nov 2012
  • Loc: Stellar Cartography, U.S.S. Enterprise NCC 1701-D

Posted 14 May 2025 - 12:40 PM

I don't have BIG aperture as you know but I'll say this: the reason that I lost aperture fever (not completely) is the larger exit pupils invite the effects of my astigmatism. Not to say I don't enjoy the low power views , but the stars with their godawful cross shapes really puts me off.  My autism hates it lol.   I like the perfection of stars and my mild astigmatism wrecks it on low powers. Bigger scopes would even force me to endure it.  I like technical, not crosses.  Al Nagler told me once over the phone, even he has it.  Such is us.

 

Cheers.

 

Pete

See post #28. When I first looked through a fast sub f/4 scope WITH glasses, I thought the view was absolutely terrible. I could not believe anyone would want a scope with a steep curve in the mirror. Then, over the course of a few months to a year, the views in my 10" f/5.6 started to match that of the faster scope. I realized the problem was in my eyes and in my PX. The stig in my eyes were getting worse faster than I expected and the PX for my glasses was getting to be too weak. 

 

There is an easy and obvious answer: wear glasses when you observe.

Without glasses, for me, naked eye stars look like lit Christmas trees.  With glasses, tiny points with no flares.

I see stars looking like comets at exit pupils >2mm without glasses.  With glasses, tiny pinpoints at a 5mm exit pupil.

I'm just sayin'...

I'll go a step further and advise that anyone who has a sub f/4 scope have their eyes checked on schedule which is typically every two years, or even sooner if the stig gets worse from check up to check up over a 4 year period. 

 

I can't stress enough, the importance of having a properly corrected set of glasses. I've found that it's not so much the cylindrical correction for stig that is important, but the axis of correction. Fast scopes will quickly show any error in the axis of correction in glasses. 


  • Starman1 and 25585 like this

#30 Redbetter

Redbetter

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2016
  • Loc: Central Valley, CA

Posted 14 May 2025 - 04:24 PM

Well stars are brighter regardless of the magnification employed. For extended objects yes - bigger aperture's only advantage is more magnification. But for stars, it's brightness. Globs look fuller and brighter.

At the same magnification the image is brighter in the larger aperture, and the eye prefers that in dark sky for galaxies.  The calculated contrast is the same, because the surrounding sky is brighter too, but the response of the eye favors the brighter image.  This isn't the same as for high surface brightness extended objects such as planets.

 

At the same magnification globs and open clusters have more resolved stars with larger aperture.  Likewise, galaxies and nebulae will have more resolved features with larger aperture.  

 

There is some optimization to be done for seeing different aspects of galaxies, or for seeing the lowest surface brightness targets at all.   For the lowest surface brightness extended objects, at some point merely increasing scale with the same aperture becomes counterproductive because the object itself is of such low surface brightness.  The surrounding sky might start out in the 21+ mpsas range, but by the time one reaches 1.8mm exit pupil, there is 3 magnitude of dimming.  The resultant 24+ mpsas apparent brightness is beginning to approach the ~26 mpsas noise level of the fully dark adapted eye.  Further increase in magnification/reduction in exit pupil hurts contrast for the lowest surface brightness features--even though it still improves visibility of the higher surface brightness regions.

 

The scale needed to resolve very low contrast/very low surface brightness features is large and the appearance is becoming vague/indistinct at threshold.  At this point increasing the scale is at or past the point of diminishing returns because the contrast loss becomes a bigger problem for the eye than the benefit of the scale.

 

I used 1.8mm as illustration because of the ~ 3 magnitude reduction, but I can see some differences in the field with some more uniform low surface brightness galaxies becoming harder to see at 1.8mm vs. 2.2mm (about 2.5 magnitude of dimming.)  For very low surface brightness regions 3.2mm exit pupil is more effective (1.7 magnitude of dimming.)  And for the very lowest surface brightness aspects/targets in 21.6+ mpsas sky, I have found anywhere from 4mm, 5mm or 6.2mm to be necessary (~1.2, 0.7, and 0.2 magnitude of dimming respectively.)

 

The opposite is true for galaxies with good surface brightness or good brightening to the center.  For them additional scale is helpful even at 1mm exit pupil (4.2 mag dimming.)  And some tiny high surface brightness features benefit from even more scale, as on a night of very good seeing I was able to first see indicatons of M87's jet at 1.8mm (278x), moreso at 1.2mm (417x) , becoming confident at 1mm (500x) and certain at 0.8mm (625x).  The jet is overlaid on the glow of the central region of M87 which has relatively high surface brightness for a background.


  • Jon Isaacs, BGazing and 25585 like this

#31 Procyon

Procyon

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,046
  • Joined: 23 Feb 2009
  • Loc: 37º N | 45° N

Posted 14 May 2025 - 04:31 PM

Screenshot 2025-05-06 000231.jpg



#32 25585

25585

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 25,902
  • Joined: 29 Aug 2017
  • Loc: In a valley, in the SW UK. 51°N

Posted 14 May 2025 - 04:52 PM

My 12" has shown views more like 15" & 18" in that illustration. That is with my ES92 12mm or Docter 12.5mm. The illustration shows smaller images going with smaller apertures, which is misleading. 8" shows better too, more like "12.5" in the picture.


  • Procyon likes this

#33 Redbetter

Redbetter

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2016
  • Loc: Central Valley, CA

Posted 14 May 2025 - 04:55 PM

The problem with the decades old Obsession simulation is that the scales are also changing in many, but not all, of the images.  To really capture and illustrate what is happening, one needs two sets of images:  one set at a fixed magnification/scale (same TFOV), the other at fixed pupil (brightness) and increasing scale with aperture. Done correctly with some empty field border, one could also see that the surrounding surface brightness was unchanged in the fixed pupil case, while it becomes brighter in the fixed magnification case.

 

The view of M13 in the 8" is not that dim.  I know because I have both an 8" SCT (my 1st scope) and a 20" Obsession (my 2nd scope.)  The difference in appearance of M51 between the apertures would be a more striking comparison.  It is precisely this comparison at a dark site that prompted me to eventually do the upgrade.


  • Starman1, Jon Isaacs, Procyon and 3 others like this

#34 Procyon

Procyon

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,046
  • Joined: 23 Feb 2009
  • Loc: 37º N | 45° N

Posted 14 May 2025 - 05:11 PM

My 12" has shown views more like 15" & 18" in that illustration. That is with my ES92 12mm or Docter 12.5mm. The illustration shows smaller images going with smaller apertures, which is misleading. 8" shows better too, more like "12.5" in the picture.

lol I posted it for a laugh, classic marketing picture on the obsession site, been there for years.

 

I think they meant resolution wise, I dunno. 

 

I'm fine with how Globs look like in my 11". And with Binoviewers for many of the brighter ones. With an 8-10mm Delos or 10 Pentax, M13 looks like the one in the 15-18". But no way an 11" will match an 18" view in terms of resolution/resolve power, obviously. I'm more curious into how Galaxies and PN's will look in bigger scopes. There should obviously be more resolution/resolving power, or more details seen in the object, is that calculable somehow? Or do we just measure the extra light grasp? 


Edited by Procyon, 14 May 2025 - 05:24 PM.

  • 25585 likes this

#35 Starman1

Starman1

    Stargeezer

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 70,080
  • Joined: 23 Jun 2003
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 14 May 2025 - 05:29 PM

I've always disliked that chart because it is heavily biased against smaller apertures.

For instance, what it shows for an 8" scope is nearly identical to how it appears in a 3" to 4" scope in dark skies.

It just isn't a realistic depiction of the differences in aperture.


  • Procyon and 25585 like this

#36 Starman1

Starman1

    Stargeezer

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 70,080
  • Joined: 23 Jun 2003
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 14 May 2025 - 05:29 PM

My 12" has shown views more like 15" & 18" in that illustration. That is with my ES92 12mm or Docter 12.5mm. The illustration shows smaller images going with smaller apertures, which is misleading. 8" shows better too, more like "12.5" in the picture.

I agree, which is one of the problems with the representation.


  • 25585 and azure1961p like this

#37 Starman1

Starman1

    Stargeezer

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 70,080
  • Joined: 23 Jun 2003
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 14 May 2025 - 05:31 PM

lol I posted it for a laugh, classic marketing picture on the obsession site, been there for years.

 

I think they meant resolution wise, I dunno. 

 

I'm fine with how Globs look like in my 11". And with Binoviewers for many of the brighter ones. With an 8-10mm Delos or 10 Pentax, M13 looks like the one in the 15-18". But no way an 11" will match an 18" view in terms of resolution/resolve power, obviously. I'm more curious into how Galaxies and PN's will look in bigger scopes. There should obviously be more resolution/resolving power, or more details seen in the object, is that calculable somehow? Or do we just measure the extra light grasp? 

Look at NGC891 at 200x.  Now, imagine it being 4x brighter in a 22" at the same magnification.

Or 4X larger at the same brightness.


  • Procyon and 25585 like this

#38 Redbetter

Redbetter

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2016
  • Loc: Central Valley, CA

Posted 14 May 2025 - 06:08 PM

One thing I didn't say (although it was implied) is that galaxies and globulars will generally appear larger in a larger aperture, even at the same magnification/scale.  Some of this is our tendency to equate brighter with bigger, but what is seen is also truly larger in apparent size.  Why?

 

The answer is that most objects don't cut off sharply in brightness profile.  Instead there is an ever dimming envelope extending further that is harder for the eye to detect than the main glow.  So when a larger aperture is used at the same scale, the observer will see not just main glow as being more bright, but they will also see more of the extent.  What is seen is a physically larger portion of the object.


  • Jon Isaacs, Procyon, BGazing and 2 others like this

#39 CHASLX200

CHASLX200

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 45,561
  • Joined: 29 Sep 2007
  • Loc: Tampa area Florida

Posted 14 May 2025 - 06:21 PM

Tell me you live in Florida without telling me you live in Florida ;-).

Ya i live there but not every nite is great.



#40 CHASLX200

CHASLX200

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 45,561
  • Joined: 29 Sep 2007
  • Loc: Tampa area Florida

Posted 14 May 2025 - 06:23 PM

Globs don't look anything like that ad in a 18" in my sky.  They are bland with a gray sky background and lack pop.



#41 Procyon

Procyon

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,046
  • Joined: 23 Feb 2009
  • Loc: 37º N | 45° N

Posted 14 May 2025 - 08:40 PM

One thing I didn't say (although it was implied) is that galaxies and globulars will generally appear larger in a larger aperture, even at the same magnification/scale.  Some of this is our tendency to equate brighter with bigger, but what is seen is also truly larger in apparent size.  Why?

 

The answer is that most objects don't cut off sharply in brightness profile.  Instead there is an ever dimming envelope extending further that is harder for the eye to detect than the main glow.  So when a larger aperture is used at the same scale, the observer will see not just main glow as being more bright, but they will also see more of the extent.  What is seen is a physically larger portion of the object.

That's great info, it's puzzled me for years, but forgot to look into it, as to why objects appeared not only brighter but bigger at the same magnification when I switched from an 8 to 11". Crazy how it works, well explained, thanks for clearing that out for me.

 

And Don is absolutely right, the picture of M13 as seen through an 8" in the Obsession picture is almost exactly how I saw M92 with a 4" refractor just the other night, near Zenith, bortle 8.5 zone. 


Edited by Procyon, 14 May 2025 - 08:42 PM.


#42 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 120,468
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 14 May 2025 - 09:00 PM

The problem with the decades old Obsession simulation is that the scales are also changing in many, but not all, of the images.  To really capture and illustrate what is happening, one needs two sets of images:  one set at a fixed magnification/scale (same TFOV), the other at fixed pupil (brightness) and increasing scale with aperture. Done correctly with some empty field border, one could also see that the surrounding surface brightness was unchanged in the fixed pupil case, while it becomes brighter in the fixed magnification case.

 

The view of M13 in the 8" is not that dim.  I know because I have both an 8" SCT (my 1st scope) and a 20" Obsession (my 2nd scope.)  The difference in appearance of M51 between the apertures would be a more striking comparison.  It is precisely this comparison at a dark site that prompted me to eventually do the upgrade.

 

The Obsession graphic is an attempt to characterize the difference aperture makes when viewing globulars.. it makes a lot.

 

When I was selling my 25 inch F/5 Dob the buyer drove over from Tucson and spent the night observing with the scope. He had his Celestron C-11 with him and asked me if he minded if he set it up for comparison. I told him I was fine with that but that one look through the 25 inch and he would realize a comparison was not needed 

 

In the morning, he told I was right about that. He said that in the 25 inch, M79 in Lepus looked like M13 in the C-11. 

 

Jon


  • helpwanted and Procyon like this

#43 Redbetter

Redbetter

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2016
  • Loc: Central Valley, CA

Posted 15 May 2025 - 01:15 AM

The Obsession graphic is an attempt to characterize the difference aperture makes when viewing globulars.. it makes a lot.

 

When I was selling my 25 inch F/5 Dob the buyer drove over from Tucson and spent the night observing with the scope. He had his Celestron C-11 with him and asked me if he minded if he set it up for comparison. I told him I was fine with that but that one look through the 25 inch and he would realize a comparison was not needed 

 

In the morning, he told I was right about that. He said that in the 25 inch, M79 in Lepus looked like M13 in the C-11. 

 

Jon

The jump from 8 to 20" is about 2 magnitude, which is slightly more than the jump from 11 to 25, about 1.8 magnitude. 

 

The graphic is unfortunately not representative of that. As others have said, it looks more like what I see with something in the 4-5" range; and the increment looks off relative to the 12.5 and 15" by a full magnitude--despite sharing the same scale from what I can tell.(The 12.5 to 15" jump looks a bit wide as well.)


  • 25585 likes this

#44 Jon Isaacs

Jon Isaacs

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 120,468
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2004
  • Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Posted 15 May 2025 - 01:35 AM

The jump from 8 to 20" is about 2 magnitude, which is slightly more than the jump from 11 to 25, about 1.8 magnitude. 

 

The graphic is unfortunately not representative of that. As others have said, it looks more like what I see with something in the 4-5" range; and the increment looks off relative to the 12.5 and 15" by a full magnitude--despite sharing the same scale from what I can tell.(The 12.5 to 15" jump looks a bit wide as well.)

 

I didn't say it was an accurate portrayal of what one might see.  It's not really possible to accurately show the differences, screens just don't have the resolution and the brightness difference is also difficult.. 

 

For me, the biggest difference in globulars with aperture is not with the showcase globulars but with the difficult globulars.  

 

Jon


  • Tangerman likes this

#45 25585

25585

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 25,902
  • Joined: 29 Aug 2017
  • Loc: In a valley, in the SW UK. 51°N

Posted 15 May 2025 - 07:35 AM

Here's a thing, sometimes a DSO can be too bright. If it has bright areas, that can spoil your sensitivity to fainter areas, similar to a bright star beside a fainter object.

 

With globulars a bright centre can interfere with seeing fainter stars as you move outwards. For M13 in particular, I can see stars at the centre, dark lanes as well as outer detail in my 12". While I am very happy with that, I am curious how much brighter and more detail a 14" or 16" would show. M13 is my test DSO and overall favourite, I have recently added another 12" F5 to my Dobs flock.


  • Procyon, mountain monk and j.gardavsky like this

#46 CrazyPanda

CrazyPanda

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,915
  • Joined: 30 Sep 2012

Posted 15 May 2025 - 08:51 AM

Here's a thing, sometimes a DSO can be too bright. If it has bright areas, that can spoil your sensitivity to fainter areas, similar to a bright star beside a fainter object.

 

With globulars a bright centre can interfere with seeing fainter stars as you move outwards. For M13 in particular, I can see stars at the centre, dark lanes as well as outer detail in my 12". While I am very happy with that, I am curious how much brighter and more detail a 14" or 16" would show. M13 is my test DSO and overall favourite, I have recently added another 12" F5 to my Dobs flock.

There wasn't a significant change in M13 from 12" to 15". It was noticeable, but not "wow". Mirror quality is also a factor.

 

One night I was at my club's dark sky site and they have a 16" available. At the time I had upgraded to my 14.7" Lockwood. I could see more stars in the 14.7" than the 16" at approximately the same magnification - both of which had been acclimated. The mirror or cell or both in the 16" was just ok. Stars were tighter and sharper in the 14.7" and I could see fainter ones more easily. I will grant I don't know the state of the coatings on the 16". The coatings on the 14.7" were newish (about 1 year old at the time if I recall).

 

So presumably if you have a premium 12", it might very well out-perform, say, a mediocre 14" on M13. Maybe not a mediocre 16" for faintest stars, but certainly for star quality.


Edited by CrazyPanda, 15 May 2025 - 08:52 AM.

  • Procyon, BGazing, 25585 and 1 other like this

#47 azure1961p

azure1961p

    James Webb Space Telescope

  • -----
  • Posts: 15,497
  • Joined: 17 Jan 2009

Posted 15 May 2025 - 10:16 AM

An absolutely untrue ridiculous graphic by someone not at all familiar with M13 through different apertures.



#48 Procyon

Procyon

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8,046
  • Joined: 23 Feb 2009
  • Loc: 37º N | 45° N

Posted 15 May 2025 - 10:25 AM

An absolutely untrue ridiculous graphic by someone not at all familiar with M13 through different apertures.

Yeah, feel like writing to them to put one up with how Redbetter described it? One set of comparisons with the same magnification/TFOV and one set with the same Exit Pupil. I wonder what they'll say lol. 

 

Maybe someone with a lot of different telescopes and eyepieces can do it someday.


Edited by Procyon, 15 May 2025 - 10:26 AM.

  • 25585 likes this

#49 azure1961p

azure1961p

    James Webb Space Telescope

  • -----
  • Posts: 15,497
  • Joined: 17 Jan 2009

Posted 15 May 2025 - 11:12 AM

I didn't say it was an accurate portrayal of what one might see.  It's not really possible to accurately show the differences, screens just don't have the resolution and the brightness difference is also difficult.. 

 

For me, the biggest difference in globulars with aperture is not with the showcase globulars but with the difficult globulars.  

 

Jon

So so true Jon.  I used to observe with a guy regularly who had his 17.5" Coulter .  What I found was M13 looked great but my 8 makes such fine pinpoint stars it held it's own. Not as bright but technically still quite impressive.  A good night with the 17.5 with good seeing and M13 dazzled.  But mine was never "dim" or shoddy.  Kinda perf3ct stars! M42 and M43, we were running both the same mags and while it WAS brighter in the 17.5 it's was all streamers, tufted clouds in my 8 and that lovely green.   Where I was bowled over was on the Horsehead with an Hbeta, the California Nebula, M51 arms just sat there looking at me as I looked at them.  In my 8 there's a peek a boo effect.  The eyes in M97, just sat there looking back at me unperturbed.  The scalloped edges of the Crab were great, revelatory even.  And the fainter objects got the more dramatically the 17.5 pulled ahead!

 

You kno what I regret with my 8"?  The more big scopes o planetary nebula showing there blue green.  The other is the way UGC and PGC become available.   But most off all this:  when some of those otherwise *anonymous* galaxies in that realm that will offer a dustlane or an arm, something that is treasured in the rarified deep expanses most other scopes show pokerfaced and featureless. 

 

It's the extremes where I think the biggest scopes really come into there own.  And yes, M42/43 upon closer inspection would reveal new things over the 8, but it's the denizens of the remote deep that are far more seductive to me!

 

Pete


Edited by azure1961p, 15 May 2025 - 11:13 AM.

  • Procyon and 25585 like this

#50 azure1961p

azure1961p

    James Webb Space Telescope

  • -----
  • Posts: 15,497
  • Joined: 17 Jan 2009

Posted 15 May 2025 - 11:16 AM

Look at NGC891 at 200x.  Now, imagine it being 4x brighter in a 22" at the same magnification.

Or 4X larger at the same brightness.

 

A good choice of object!

 

Pete


  • 25585 likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics