26 replies to this topic

[25585]

With the price of NVDs, a smart scope must be cheaper. Which one would show equivalent detail to a NVD, scope aperture being the same?

Edited by 25585, 15 May 2025 - 05:37 PM.

[Keith Rivich]

With the price of NVDs, a smart scope must be cheaper. Which one would show equivalent detail to a NVD, scope aperture being the same?

I don't think any smart scope would match a NVD at the eyepiece. Different creatures. Smart scopes are fixed wide field imagers while the NVD can be used at quite high power with the correct set up. I suppose the Smart scope image could be cropped and zoomed to match the live NVD image. 

Edited by Keith Rivich, 15 May 2025 - 09:49 PM.

[bradhaak]

No smart scope is equivalent to an NVD because they work differently. An NVD amplifies light in real time. A smart scope, gathers light over extended periods of time with no amplification via long exposure photography.

[Jethro7]

With the price of NVDs, a smart scope must be cheaper. Which one would show equivalent detail to a NVD, scope aperture being the same?

Hello 25585,

Even though the Pegasus Smart eye has not been rolled out yet. On paper the Smarteye has alot going for it that looks pretty good. Being a night vision astronomy enthusiast, besides the views that are awesome. One of the best features that a night vision device has going for it, is the total immersion feeling one receives from viewing in real time through the eyepiece. Although the Smarteye its self is not a smart telescope, it and the SkySafari App basically turns your scope and tracking mount (provided that the mount is capable) that you already own into a robotic telescope. The Smarteye has a viewing screen that you can look through that will come as close to a night vision device, allowing you to enjoy that immersed feeling in near time. With that being said. I enjoy my ZWO Seestar S50. ZWO keeps making this gadget better and Better with each firmware upgrade and I keep hearing rumors about a Seestar S70. The only downside to the Seestar and other Smart telescopes for that matter is, you don't get the immersion feeling just a slight feeling of disconnect by having to view the target image on a phone or tablet screen.

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP. Jethro

 

P.S. All in All, I still enjoy my night vision devices more.

Edited by Jethro7, 15 May 2025 - 07:30 PM.

[TOMDEY]

No smart scope is equivalent to an NVD because they work differently. An NVD amplifies light in real time. A smart scope, gathers light over extended periods of time with no amplification via long exposure photography.

Alas, Yep - What's ~truly~ reserved as "Night Vision Device" (NVD) is reserved for especially the modern Gen3 photoamplified analog devices. Those are the only literally "real time" view without delay, smear or strobing --- obviously of crucial timely importance to the war fighters and hunters. Last thing you want is to see an enemy attacking looking like a disco dancer. For astronomy that is rarely important --- because we have ~forever~ to collect photons. That technology comes at a cost, though. A few kilobucks or more the cost of entry. But a Smart Scope properly configured and integrated long enough could probably deliver the same for one willing to wait a few minutes.   Tom

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[bradhaak]

Hello 25585,

Even though the Pegasus Smart eye has not been rolled out yet. On paper the Smarteye has alot going for it that looks pretty good. Being a night vision astronomy enthusiast, besides the views. One of the best features that a night vision device has going for it, is the total immersion feeling one receives from viewing in real time through the eyepiece. The Smarteye and the SkySafari App basically turns your scope and tracking mount (provided that the mount is capable) that you already own into a robotic telescope. The Smarteye has a viewing screen that you can look through that will come as close to a night vision device, allowing you to enjoy that immersed feeling in near time. With that being said. I enjoy my ZWO Seestar S50. ZWO keeps making this gadget better and Better with each firmware upgrade and I keep hearing rumors about a Seestar S70. The only downside to the Seestar and other Smart telescopes for that matter is, you don't get the immersion feeling just a slight feeling of disconnect by having to view the target on a phone or tablet. 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP. Jethro

But again, the Pegasus Smart Eye isn't real-time. It uses live stacking and works just like a smart scope. The only difference being that it costs more. It' isn't equivalent to an NVD. It produces better images (maybe) over time, but isn't equivalent or able to work like an NVD

[Jethro7]

But again, the Pegasus Smart Eye isn't real-time. It uses live stacking and works just like a smart scope. The only difference being that it costs more. It' isn't equivalent to an NVD. It produces better images (maybe) over time, but isn't equivalent or able to work like an NVD

Hello bradhaak,

I clearly stated that the Smarteye is not real time viewing like an NVD.  Read my post again. It is just that the Smarteye has the ability to look into it like an NVD was my point, that's all.

 

KEEP LOOKING UP. Jethro

Edited by Jethro7, 15 May 2025 - 07:39 PM.

[RichA]

Major difference, besides the scope not matching 25.000-50,000 light-gain is resolution.  I've not seen any NVD that had resolution of a decent imager using conventional optics.  This is also a benefit, and NVD can use a very fast, though poorly-corrected lens whereas a conventional scope or camera can't.  

[bradhaak]

Hello bradhaak,

I clearly stated that the Smarteye is not real time viewing like an NVD.  Read my post again. It is just that the Smarteye has the ability to look into it like an NVD was my point, that's all.

 

KEEP LOOKING UP. Jethro

By that logic, so does any smart scope, which is what the OP asked about. But the Smarteye looks very cool for folks who want to keep their investment in conventional scopes, and maybe not move to digital viewing full time. 

Edited by bradhaak, 15 May 2025 - 09:01 PM.

[TOMDEY]

My Gen3 Night Vision is so good that it causes the user to develop a taste for mice.

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[Jethro7]

By that logic, so does any smart scope, which is what the OP asked about. But if you want to recommend a fake eyepiece device, a Unistellar scope like the Equinox 2 would at least be relevant to this forum.

Hello Bradhaak,

 Logic is sometimes a matter of perspective. The Op's main issue is the cost outlay of a night vision device. Thinking a little outside the Box here. From my point of view, the Smarteye in the end result, if the gadget works as good as reported, just might accomplish the OP's needs at about 1/3rd the cost of a night vision device. Both devices work like an eyepiece and that is what has caught my interest about the Smarteye. The night vision device in real time and the Smarteye in near time and with that time, the Smarteye should resolve much better images, especially images of targets that are faint fuzzies through a night vision device. 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

[sevenofnine]

For $550 the Seestar S50 is still a very nice night time experience. For the NVD experience, you have to add another zero to that figure. Maybe someday I'll get one 

 

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Edited by sevenofnine, 15 May 2025 - 09:36 PM.

[bradhaak]

I would look for a military surplus NVD that's a couple of generations old. One of the guys in the club has one that he picked up for a few hundred dollars. It has a single sensor that splits into the two eye displays. The incredibly cool thing is that the single sensor is in a 1-1/4" housing. So yeah, that's what we did. The first time he showed up with it, he wondered if it would work as an eyepiece. It did. We plugged it into my 14" dob as the eyepiece, got it focused, and had the most incredible night of viewing.

 

It was a blast!

[Keith Rivich]

I would look for a military surplus NVD that's a couple of generations old. One of the guys in the club has one that he picked up for a few hundred dollars. It has a single sensor that splits into the two eye displays. The incredibly cool thing is that the single sensor is in a 1-1/4" housing. So yeah, that's what we did. The first time he showed up with it, he wondered if it would work as an eyepiece. It did. We plugged it into my 14" dob as the eyepiece, got it focused, and had the most incredible night of viewing.

 

It was a blast!

The modern Gen 3's are hard to beat. With the gain adjusted properly the view is nearly indistinguishable from a normal eyepiece view. Pretty amazing. However, I still prefer the natural view of a regular eyepiece.

[bradhaak]

Hello Bradhaak,

 Logic is sometimes a matter of perspective. The Op's main issue is the cost outlay of a night vision device. Thinking a little outside the Box here. From my point of view, the Smarteye in the end result, if the gadget works as good as reported, just might accomplish the OP's needs at about 1/3rd the cost of a night vision device. Both devices work like an eyepiece and that is what has caught my interest about the Smarteye. The night vision device in real time and the Smarteye in near time and with that time, the Smarteye should resolve much better images, especially images of targets that are faint fuzzies through a night vision device. 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

Not trying to quibble, but the Smarteye is useless without a telescope or something similar to us it with. And it may be 'near time' with a very (very) large scope. But with a smaller, more portable scope, it will have similar acquisition times as a smart scope of the same aperture, because that is essentially what it is. It's a smart scope without the scope part included. Getting that last piece will also affect it's overall cost. And it need to be a guided scope (according to the FAQ), so that makes it even more expensive.

 

One thing that would be nice to know, is the use case of the OP. If it's a completely real time usage, like night hunting (illegal in most states), or driving without lights at night (illegal on public roads), wildlife observing, or something similar, none of our stuff will work. If it involves reasonably static observation, any smart scope or a Smarteye would be great for him unless he needs to have a completely mobile walk-around solution. 

 

Without knowing that, we can't even begin to make real recommendations or even answer his basic question.

[Peter Besenbruch]

It was a blast!

I'm sure it was.

[Jethro7]

Without knowing that, we can't even begin to make real recommendations or even answer his basic ququestion.

Hello bradhaak,

Something about this sure has you stuck in a cerebral Loop. This was simply my two cents worth and really up to the 25585, to decide if there is any 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

Edited by Jethro7, 16 May 2025 - 09:25 PM.

[Dave Mitsky]

Here's a hand-held afocal iPhone shot of M17 that I took using a friend's homemade 32" Dob and a night vision device.

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[bradhaak]

You didn't read the original post in light of what I said in the post that you only quoted a part of (the least important part, too).

 

So no, I'm not "stuck in a cerebral Loop [SIC]." But I might ask the same of you since you've lost track of what was actually asked and the lack of information needed to answer the question.

 

But you know what? I'm done. You're welcome to declare victory because you outlasted me. I'm tired of repeating myself to someone who doesn't listen.

 

No harm no foul and I wish you the best. I can't wait to read your impressions of the Smarteye when you receive one. It looks like an incredible piece of kit for folks who want to move into the 21st century without completely giving up the ability to do visual or to fully commit to astrophotography. If I still had a big goto Dob, I'd probably be looking at it, too.

 

Take care and clear skies!

[bradhaak]

Here's a hand-held afocal iPhone shot of M17 that I took using a friend's homemade 32" Dob and a night vision device.

Yeah, the monochrome night vision look is a little weird, but it's such a cool adaptation of technology. I bet he had a blast playing with it!

[WillR]

But again, the Pegasus Smart Eye isn't real-time. It uses live stacking and works just like a smart scope. The only difference being that it costs more. It' isn't equivalent to an NVD. It produces better images (maybe) over time, but isn't equivalent or able to work like an NVD

No not equivalent, but it works with your existing telescope, giving you options for focal length, focal ratio etc. So in that respect it is more versatile than a smart scope. One drawback though is that you really need tracking, whereas NV can be used on a dob with no tracking.

 

If money was no object, I’d have them both.

[BrentKnight]

With the price of NVDs, a smart scope must be cheaper. Which one would show equivalent detail to a NVD, scope aperture being the same?

With an NVD. you get what you get in real-time.  The image won't improve the more you look at it (except of course that you notice details similar to how you would notice details with an eyepiece in a traditional scope over time).  With a camera attached to the scope - either as an all-in-one device like a smart telescope or any astro cam like the SmartEye - the image will improve over time.  You also won't get colors with an NVD.

 

I would say that if real-time viewing is the most important bit for you, get the NVD.  The camera will give a better image (given enough time), but it won't give you real-time views.

[WillR]

With an NVD. you get what you get in real-time.  The image won't improve the more you look at it (except of course that you notice details similar to how you would notice details with an eyepiece in a traditional scope over time).  With a camera attached to the scope - either as an all-in-one device like a smart telescope or any astro cam like the SmartEye - the image will improve over time.  You also won't get colors with an NVD.

 

I would say that if real-time viewing is the most important bit for you, get the NVD.  The camera will give a better image (given enough time), but it won't give you real-time views.

You made me think about something. You mention the image won’t improve with time, but also that you will see more details over time. So we might consider that improving over time. 

 

So then I got to thinking about how that happens. Is it possible our brain is, in its own way, stacking photons over time? Is there some sort of “processing” going on as we let a faint fuzzy linger in our vision? 

Edited by WillR, 18 May 2025 - 05:06 PM.

[Daesymmato]

I’ve been testing the Seestar S50 for a few weeks now, and while it's impressive for quick imaging and sharing, it doesn’t really match the instantaneous feedback you'd get through night vision gear. Night vision is more immersive and real-time. I have some thermal equipment too, and although that's a different use case, it makes me appreciate how direct and responsive those devices can be compared to smart scopes.

[WillR]

I’ve been testing the Seestar S50 for a few weeks now, and while it's impressive for quick imaging and sharing, it doesn’t really match the instantaneous feedback you'd get through night vision gear. Night vision is more immersive and real-time. I have some thermal equipment too, and although that's a different use case, it makes me appreciate how direct and responsive those devices can be compared to smart scopes.

Yes, they are very different. The topic title is misleading because it implies that there is an equivalence.