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Premium diagonal vs premium eyepiece, which matter more to get the most performance out of your scope?

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#51 MrsM75

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:06 PM

I know people keep say the general rule is slow scope prism, and fast scope mirror. 

 

But in my experience, my Maks which at f/15 and f/14 the prism did not show a better image than mirror. 

 

I had a Prism diagonal before (no longer have) because I decided to keep the GSO 99% dielectric instead.

Here why: When test on Jupiter, the prism show more light scatter, and like this faint bluish tint on Jupiter outer edge. While the GSO 99% dielectric 'mirror' does not.

 

Maybe I got a defective unit or out of collimation prism (I wouldn't know as I do not know how to collimate diagonal). But there a reason why I choose to keep the dielectric mirror instead of the prism.

 

I can buy that same prism again and see if this time it give me same result.

 

And sorry, I don't want to use an excuse that perhaps that Prism was out of collimation, you do not know that. Perhaps that prism simply just NOT better than the 99% dielectric mirror one.


Edited by MrsM75, 18 May 2025 - 03:08 PM.

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#52 Mike W

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:14 PM

Optically you probably won't notice much difference from the GSO and Televue, what you pay extra for is the one piece design (machined from a block of aluminum) and high re-sale. (better coatings?)


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#53 vtornado

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:21 PM

Im not here to argue, your eyes are your eyes.  If you like your GSO you can keep your GSO.  If you do want to try something more expensive, I would buy used so you can flip it with minimal loss if it doesn't "wow" you.


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#54 Astrojensen

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:42 PM

I know people keep say the general rule is slow scope prism, and fast scope mirror. 

 

But in my experience, my Maks which at f/15 and f/14 the prism did not show a better image than mirror. 

 

I had a Prism diagonal before (no longer have) because I decided to keep the GSO 99% dielectric instead.

Here why: When test on Jupiter, the prism show more light scatter, and like this faint bluish tint on Jupiter outer edge. While the GSO 99% dielectric 'mirror' does not.

 

Maybe I got a defective unit or out of collimation prism (I wouldn't know as I do not know how to collimate diagonal). But there a reason why I choose to keep the dielectric mirror instead of the prism.

 

I can buy that same prism again and see if this time it give me same result.

 

And sorry, I don't want to use an excuse that perhaps that Prism was out of collimation, you do not know that. Perhaps that prism simply just NOT better than the 99% dielectric mirror one.

The important thing is that you compared the diagonals, and trusted your own observations. Good work! waytogo.gif

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


Edited by Astrojensen, 18 May 2025 - 03:42 PM.

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#55 russell23

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:46 PM

Where I have noticed the difference is with lunar/planetary observations. My Vernonscope diagonal with a 1/26th wave mirror is clearly sharper for moon and planets. For deep sky I'll sometimes use the Williams optics Durabright which is an excellent lower cost diagonal.
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#56 MrsM75

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:50 PM

I am thinking of fork out $90 plus tax which is $100 for the William Optics Erecting Prism or Long Perng 1.25" 90º Correct Image Amici Prism Diagonal. BUT the thing is I don't like the "Erecting/Correct image", I am used to the flip left right view of the Dieletric mirror diagonal.


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#57 MrsM75

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:52 PM

It say this on the site: [[ 1.25" correct-image prism diagonal features a multi-coated image-erecting Amici roof prism that allows you to look into a telescope at a 90-degree angle for terrestrial and astronomical viewing. 

This is a great diagonal for daytime terrestrial use with refractors and Cassegrain telescopes with 1.25” focusers. The diagonal excels at terrestrial observing, but it can also be used for some astronomy applications to match the orientation of the star field with "correct" star maps and charts. It is not recommended for use at high magnifications or on bright targets during night-time astronomical use. ]]



#58 Astrojensen

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 03:53 PM

Not so, I trust Televue to give me the best diagonal (or among the best) for the money. How many times have you heard of a bad TV or AP diagonal?

I trust no one. I've never tried a Televue or AP diagonal (not that I can remember, at least), and am not sure I've heard anything bad about them, but I would still test them, if I purchased one. 

 

All optics need to be tested. People rigorously test and critially compare telescopes and eyepieces all the time, so why this laissez-faire attitude towards diagonals on refractors and Cassegrains? I don't get it. The Newtonian crowd are pretty concerned about diagonal quality.   

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#59 Mike W

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 04:03 PM

You've never heard anything bad about TV or AP diagonals because it doesn't happen. They are inspected and tested before they are packaged.

 

Every mirror is tested and inspected:

https://www.televue....id=62&Tab=_90EB

 

Eyepieces: 

 

https://www.bing.com...994&FORM=VRDGAR


Edited by Mike W, 18 May 2025 - 04:15 PM.

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#60 j.gardavsky

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 04:31 PM

According to the Tele Vue page, 

they offer the dielectric Everbright, and the budget Enhanced Aluminium diagonals.

 

The Everbright has the 1/10 lambda surface flatness.

 

For myself, I am using the Baader BBHS 2" mirror diagonal for its maximum transmissivity,

and on the Moon and planets the 2" Wild Heerbrugg prism from the tactical optics. The tactical optics specifications go down to 1/40 lambda surface flatness.

 

For the outreach I used to take the 2" dielectric diagonal Made in Taiwan, as offered by Teleskop Service.

 

Best,

JG


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#61 T1R2

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 06:46 PM

I am thinking of fork out $90 plus tax which is $100 for the William Optics Erecting Prism or Long Perng 1.25" 90º Correct Image Amici Prism Diagonal. BUT the thing is I don't like the "Erecting/Correct image", I am used to the flip left right view of the Dieletric mirror diagonal.

I have the LP 1.25" 90* correct image prism, and its a good/great diagonal, at low -medium power its just as good as my cheap $45 beloved Celestron 1.25" prism 94115-A,  which is excellent, but at high power on brighter stars with the RACI diagonals there a very minor horizontal diffraction spike barely detectable at high power, but its there if you look for it, however its absent on faint doubles like the Double Double in Lyra. And its biggest "pro" is with star hopping and Lunar feature ID'ing as it can be a challenge to find features at high power when following a correct image lunar atlas with a mirror reversed diagonal, so in this regard its a great to have and the diffraction spikes that are common on amici prisms are not noticeable on extended objects like the moon, only on point sources like bright stars. 

 

There is a easy way to fix diagonals that may be out of collimation like with the Celestron Prism, take the back off but first make sure the small hex key set screws in the side of the diagonal are gently tightened (these are not for collimation, but for not letting the prism fall out if the back plate is removed). then you can remove the leaf spring and leave it out, it will not be going back inside, and cut one or two pieces of craft felt by using the black cardboard backing as a template, then add them in the back of the diagonal after you first place the cardboard back onto the backside of the prism. Then screw the backplate back on all the way, this will hold the diagonal in better alignment usually, I never have to worry about my prism being out of collimation now. 

 

Also collimation of the diagonal (if the diagonal is collimatable) can be done with a paper mask with a center (+) marked on the front and taped to the front of the scope, then point the scope towards a mirror and put a collimated laser collimator in the diagonal, now you can lock the clutches on the mount and while standing behind the diagonal you can manipulate the collimation screws on the diagonal until the dot of the laser is on the center mark +.  this is much easier than not using a mirror in front of the scope and having to make a adjustment then walk around to the front of the scope to see if you made the right adjustment. 

 

Don't let the $45 dollar price of the Celestron prism frighten you, they are usually very good to excellent, with their polish and coatings and transmission.    


Edited by T1R2, 18 May 2025 - 07:55 PM.

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#62 quilty

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 06:50 PM

Not so, I trust Televue to give me the best diagonal (or among the best) for the money. How many times have you heard of a bad TV or AP diagonal?


Why must you say "best for the money"? Certainly not. That would be my Celestron prism for 10€ or the prism tested by Tomdey for 15USD.

Best ever or best money can buy might be some BBHS or so.

#63 quilty

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 06:53 PM

According to the Tele Vue page, 
they offer the dielectric Everbright, and the budget Enhanced Aluminium diagonals.
 
The Everbright has the 1/10 lambda surface flatness.
 
For myself, I am using the Baader BBHS 2" mirror diagonal for its maximum transmissivity,
and on the Moon and planets the 2" Wild Heerbrugg prism from the tactical optics. The tactical optics specifications go down to 1/40 lambda surface flatness.
 
For the outreach I used to take the 2" dielectric diagonal Made in Taiwan, as offered by Teleskop Service.
 
Best,
JG


Specially the latter is my least diagonal which I don't use anymore. Inferior still to the all plastic Bresser 1.25" mirror

Edited by quilty, 18 May 2025 - 06:54 PM.


#64 MrsM75

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Posted 18 May 2025 - 06:59 PM

I do not like Erecting Prism, simply because I am just use to the image of my dielectric mirror diagonal flip left right, and if you read this thread 

https://www.cloudyni...agonal-k125t-h/

 

Erecting prism is not recommend for astronomy use.

 

quotes from 2 posters in that thread: [[ Sorry I don't recommend correct image diagonals for astro. They eat up so much back focus due to extra reflections that hi power eyepieces won't reach focus often.

...and introduces specific fine image distortion, especially coming out on hi magnification. ]]

 

 

And I do use high power, I use 317x on my 5 inch Mak with my 6mm eyepiece. So erecting prism is a no go for me.

 

I just ordered a Celestorn Prism for $44  Good thing it not Erecting.

 

Once I get it and test it, let see how it go against my GSO and William Optics diagonal which both are dielectric. 


Edited by MrsM75, 18 May 2025 - 07:06 PM.

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#65 Astrojensen

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 02:00 AM

You've never heard anything bad about TV or AP diagonals because it doesn't happen. They are inspected and tested before they are packaged.

 

Every mirror is tested and inspected:

https://www.televue....id=62&Tab=_90EB

 

Eyepieces: 

 

https://www.bing.com...994&FORM=VRDGAR

Yes, and? They also test and inspect their telescopes, yet reports of miscollimation and such are not unheard of, even if they're rare. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark



#66 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 03:29 AM

Perhaps, but I tested mine visually at the telescope, in a long focal length refractor. And the difference was still very pronounced. 

 

My experience is that the optical quality of diagonals vary wildly, and that expensive is not necessarily equal to high optical quality. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

 

My experience is otherwise.  Most of my diagonals are 2 inch TeleVue Everbrites, I have a few other dielectric diagonals, when I swap them, I don't see a noticeable difference.  Even with less expensive diagonals, it's pretty rare.  Recently I was testing a newly acquired Meade 277, a 60mm F/5 Achromat and the views were not good at all.  I finally remembered where I had another 1.25 inch diagonal and swapping diagonals dramatically improved the views of some double stars.  In my experience, that is quite rare.

 

I think the blackening of the interior of the Everbrites is superior, the Asian diagonals tend to have some bright black anodized surfaces which can cause issues.  And the mechanical construction of the Everbrite's in unmatched.  The body is machined from a single piece of aluminum.  That's nice when the eyepieces weight a kilogram. 

 

Everbrite 1.jpg
 
Everbrite 2.jpg
 
But most diagonals are quite good.. 

 

Jon



#67 25585

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 04:08 AM

Also the TV is a one piece design that will outlast the owner most likely= "Everbright"

Their Enhanced Aluminium diagonals are as good, and cheaper. Really nice bright clear clean stars.



#68 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 04:29 AM

Also the TV is a one piece design that will outlast the owner most likely= "Everbright"

 
Just for the record, it's Everbrite.  This is the only Everbrite diagonal I have ever seen with cursive writing.  
 
Everbrite 3.jpg
 
Scopes and most diagonals can be misaligned, miscollimated.  The way the Everbrite's are made, the collimation is inherent in the machining and design.  
 
Jon

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#69 quilty

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 04:39 AM

My experience is otherwise.  Most of my diagonals are 2 inch TeleVue Everbrites, I have a few other dielectric diagonals, when I swap them, I don't see a noticeable difference.  Even with less expensive diagonals, it's pretty rare.  Recently I was testing a newly acquired Meade 277, a 60mm F/5 Achromat and the views were not good at all.  I finally remembered where I had another 1.25 inch diagonal and swapping diagonals dramatically improved the views of some double stars.  In my experience, that is quite rare.
 
I think the blackening of the interior of the Everbrites is superior, the Asian diagonals tend to have some bright black anodized surfaces which can cause issues.  And the mechanical construction of the Everbrite's in unmatched.  The body is machined from a single piece of aluminum.  That's nice when the eyepieces weight a kilogram. 
 
 
 
 
 
But most diagonals are quite good.. 
 
Jon


I prefer very much low weighing diagonals and eyepieces. weight is no quality substitute, proof neither.

I can see to the perfect alingment of my diagonals on my own without a kg of added weight. And yet your kg weighing diagonal can't take the ES 30mm 100° ep

Stephan

Edited by quilty, 19 May 2025 - 04:44 AM.


#70 MrsM75

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 05:23 AM

Quilty, Sir John Isaacs has big scopes, like obsession size scopes, I agreed with him with his scopes size he should get diagonals that heavy and sturdy. If I have scopes his size I wouldn't want a lightweight plastic diagonals neither. Sorry.


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#71 quilty

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 05:56 AM

whenever I need a counterweight I change the mounting point. I use 1.25 eyepieces only no matter what scope size
No need to apologize for what you prefer or not, me neither
You won't like your new C prism it's a semi plastic body. When you insert a heavy ep or an ep with barlow it can get loose and fall of when the ep position is not straight up, specially when it points at 8 to 10 o clock
You then need to fix that thread by gluing. I don't mind that, do you?

Edited by quilty, 19 May 2025 - 06:03 AM.


#72 BGazing

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 08:02 AM

I use the Premium Amici, Baader Astro.  https://www.baader-p...hs-coating.html
 

The APM is almost as good   https://www.teleskop...d-coating-11933
 

My others are unused.

APM diagonal came to my friend came fairly miscollimated, there were colors galore.



#73 Mike W

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 10:18 AM

Yes, and? They also test and inspect their telescopes, yet reports of miscollimation and such are not unheard of, even if they're rare. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

Of diagonals? As Jon said "collimation is inherent in the machining and design".


Edited by Mike W, 19 May 2025 - 10:21 AM.


#74 Levant

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 11:06 AM

Diagonal has only one job: It prevents neck ache. The price we pay for this can be, a minimal loss in image quality. 

 

Therefore the best diagonal in the world is no diagonal.

 

Do you need to upgrade your diagonal? A very basic test can answer this question:

 

1- Locate a target low in the sky, preferably the moon or a planet and note the tiniest detail you dissociate on it. 

2- Remove the diagonal and insert the eyepiece directly in the visual back.

3- Check the same detail and make a decision if you see more details.

4- If you see more details, you may consider upgrading your stock diagonal. I can recommend Astro-tech quartz.

 

On the other hand, I really recommend some eyepiece upgrades that are very cost-effective:

1- Tele Vue 32mm 1.25 inch because it has the widest FOV available in 1.25 inch and it is brilliant

2- Celestron 30mm 70 degrees eyepiece 2 inch because it shows the stars like jewels

3- Celestron 8-24 zoom because Baader Mark IV is not far superior than this.

 

I hope this helps.



#75 Mike W

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Posted 19 May 2025 - 11:09 AM

Diagonal has only one job: It prevents neck ache. The price we pay for this can be, a minimal loss in image quality. 

 

Therefore the best diagonal in the world is no diagonal.

 

Do you need to upgrade your diagonal? A very basic test can answer this question:

 

1- Locate a target low in the sky, preferably the moon or a planet and note the tiniest detail you dissociate on it. 

2- Remove the diagonal and insert the eyepiece directly in the visual back.

3- Check the same detail and make a decision if you see more details.

4- If you see more details, you may consider upgrading your stock diagonal. I can recommend Astro-tech quartz.

 

On the other hand, I really recommend some eyepiece upgrades that are very cost-effective:

1- Tele Vue 32mm 1.25 inch because it has the widest FOV available in 1.25 inch and it is brilliant

2- Celestron 30mm 70 degrees eyepiece 2 inch because it shows the stars like jewels

3- Celestron 8-24 zoom because Baader Mark IV is not far superior than this.

 

I hope this helps.

24panoptic has a wider FOV than the 32plossl.




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