61 replies to this topic

[severencir]

I have been fascinated with astronomy for most of my life, but most of my life i lived in an area with such bad air quality and such bright lights that i frequently joked about being able to see 4 stars. This demotivated me to try much, along with the lack of a budget to dedicate to the hobby. A few years ago i moved to a bortle 4 area and just recently got a spendable budget, and after... a lot of research, i came to the same conclusion i saw posted in so many places. just buy an Apertura AD8. Along with the scope, i bought a 25mm eyepiece and a folding chair.

On the day i received it, i practiced looking at the horizon, collimating, focusing, and aligning the finder scope, and otherwise getting familiar with it's operation. Everything seemed easy enough. When night fell though, it was a different story. The first thing i noticed was that i should not have tried to rely on that folding chair. It was great when trying to look near the horizon, but i wasn't wanting to focus on the horizon. It was terrible for anything semi high, and i am too tall to comfortably lean down to use it. Still, i did what i could and started by aligning the scope to vega and getting my finder scope in alignment. I chose vega because i figured it'd stand out quite well as it's the only thing in that area of the sky that was anywhere close to being as bright as it. I got vega into my finder fairly quickly and used that to get it in the center of my eyepiece and adjust the alignment successfully. I was feeling good about it at that point. I went on to collimating it, and i found out that it's hard to see screws in the dark, but i was able to fumble my way into getting it collimated.

With everything in place, i decided to just look around in the area of vega and see what was there. My first thing of note was that i had no idea what i was looking at, and i could only gesture broadly to the region of sky i was in. Even in the finder scope it was very difficult to get my bearing right. I decided to try practicing aligning my scope to vega and was able to do so a few times successfully, then decided to move on to something else. I turned the scope around and started looking at mars, as the only planet i could reasonably look at in outside of the bright penumbra right now. it took some effort, but i managed to get a decent view of a tiny redish disc. It wasn't too impressive, but i considered it a success. I then figured that if i can align to vega, i could probably try to see m57. It did not go well. I could align to vega, but once i tried finding the rest of lyra, i had difficulty. I was used to navigating by constellation because of naked eye observation, but that skill is only marginally helpful when you have about an 8 degree tfov in your finder and less than 2 at the eyepiece. I didn't yet have the knowledge i would eventually end up with either, and most importantly, i couldn't figure out how much of the sky i was actually seeing. I could calculate the tfov, but that doesn't really help me intuit what i am seeing and how much i need to move in which direction. Needless to say, i didn't end up finding m57 that night. I then figured that i would try aligning with another star and practice some basics first. I chose deneb because it was in a good part of the sky for my viewing location, somewhat close to the horizon so i didn't have to kill my back, and it was also fairly bright. It took me a long time looking down my scope and sweeping back and forth to find it, but i eventually did. When i tried seeing if i could align to arcturus and polaris, i started to realize how good of a choice vega was as a starting star. I failed to find them and it was getting late, so i packed up for the night.

The next night was cloudy, so i spent my non-working hours doing a lot of research on how to navigate, including starting to read turn left at orion. This was my biggest holdup so i wanted to figure out what i could without the scope pointed at the sky. By the time tonight came around, i had some plans. Last night i went to walmart and got a cheap hardware section stool to give me some more solid seating for the higher angles. I ordered a telrad reflex finder for future nights, and i got a bit more familiar with some targets i wanted to try to find. This night i started while it was still dusk. I quickly collimated, aligned my finder at a distant light, and decided to take a look at the moon. This was a good decision. I was impressed with the detail i could see in the moon with my scope and even captured a not-terrible image with my smartphone adapter.

Morale high and plans in mind, i swung my scope around toward vega, aligned it quickly, and looked for the double star of the head triangle to have a reference size to work with. I lingered on that double star a bit somewhat in awe that it always looked like one star visually, but was so clearly 2 in my scope. I then used this visual reference to find the side of the parallelogram. after a bit of trying and failing i eventually went back to my reference point and went in the right direction. I found a couple stars i thought were far enough apart and bright enough to be the end of lyra. I lingered a bit and i scanned the field, i saw a brief flash of a grey blob. my eyes snapped to it instinctually and it disappeared. i quickly started to find the sweetspot to see it with averted vision and it was very clearly there. I assuredly succeeded at seeing a faint fuzzy ring-y thing.

With that victory i decided to try to align with arcturus again. I started by aligning to vega and trying to find a spot to put my head so that i could have a reference point for vega on my scope and use that as a sort of zero magnification sight. It worked well enough after practicing moving the scope and snapping back to vega. With that done, my buddy happened to be around and asked about a scintillating star nearish the horizon. I quickly identified he was talking about antares thanks to staring at the sky for years and decided to use my newly developed "skill" to snap to antares instead. It worked quite well. I positioned my scope with a locking screw as a reference, caught antares in my finder scope, centered in, and looked into the eyepiece. It was actually really cool, kind of a flashing thing with red on one side and blue on the other with white in the middle. I later learned that it's a very close binary. This was easily my favorite part of the night because of how cool it looked. Later i would return and find the blue part missing (guessing in front of or behind the main star or something). I then aligned with arcturus somewhat easily and noticed the thing i wasn't previously really seeing with other stars, but had been expecting. Diffraction spikes and the sort of light glowey bubble around it. I would later see this around vega when trying, but it was very noticeable here.

After that i started trying to make my way to hercules to try to find m13. I spent a long time here, but just could not figure out where i was for more than a single field view at one point. I decided to start going for albireo. I had some trouble using my finder scope. I didn't yet know it, but my finder and my eyepiece were starting to fog up, so i struggled a bit, but found albireo and it was pretty cool. I switched my eyepiece out for my 25mm one because it wasn't fogged, and got a much better view. I tried navigating some more without the finder because it was nearly impossible to see through, and had some success, but it was very hard, so i decided to call it quits.

All in all, i am happy i went for round 2 with more of an idea of what to do, and i am really looking forward to my telrad.
 

[astrokeith]

Welcome to the forum & the hobby.

 

Try a 'red dot finder' - sounds like it might suit you just now.

Edited by dnrmilspec, 30 May 2025 - 11:19 AM.

[Binofrac]

Your first post is a good one. The hardest part when I started was trying to relate the view through the scope, finder, starmaps, planispheres, etc to the actual night sky. All the different scales involved made it quite confusing. There are many different ways of finding things but these days I rely on a big cheap eyepiece (Superview 2" 42mm, amazing for the price), green laser and the free Astrohopper "push to" app on my phone. I also have a 10x50 binocular with me for those wider easier views.

 

Good luck in  your new hobby it sounds like you're going to have a lot of fun.

[The Ardent]

M13 is easily visible in small binoculars. I advise using them to help get your bearings for aiming the scope. 
 

When I had a scope like yours the Telrad was an enormous help. 
 

Also the common 5 gallon bucket makes a good chair . Add a small cushion . 
When the session is over place the cushion back in the bucket, and you have a carrier for small items. 

[Jay_Reynolds_Freeman]

Congratulations on successfully getting started. I suspect you will find it useful to have, either in software or on paper, charts at several different scales, and also a small binocular to use as a "pre-finder" before you start using your telescope's finder.

 

Clear sky ...

[MikeTahtib]

Bortle 4 is great, you should be able to see a lot from there when the weather and moon co-operate. And while we often complain about the moon blotting out so many objects, as you have discovered, the moon is one of the best things to look at in a telescope.  The view changes every night as the angle of light coming from the sun changes and highlights different features, so there is a lot of observing to be done on the moon.

 

I love the challenge of finding objects.  To me, it is one of the best parts of the hobby.  You mentioned Turn Left at Orion, which is good, but I found it unusable by itself for finding objects, or even constellations, because I could not correlate the little diagrams to the sky, as there was no sense of scale or context.  The descriptions of where to hop from-to were also hard because I couldn't tell if I was starting from the right spot or headed in the right direction.

 

The Cambridge Star Atlas has been my main guide for my entire astronomy journey of 14 years.  I like this book because each page covers a significant portion of the sky, so it is easy to find stars and constellations that you can identify, turn the map to match the view in the sky, then find out where you need to go next.  It has enough detail to keep you busy for a long time looking at new things.  I use this book to come up with general estimates of where something should be (for example, M13 is about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down from the top of the keystone on the right side, or M57 is between the 2 bottom stars of the parallelogram, a little off center), then hunt around some, exactly as you have done.  There are many atlases with their own pros and cons, but many of them are so zoomed in that it's hard to figure out where things are in relation to the rest of the sky

 

You will love your Telrad for many reasons.  It is easy to use, has very adjustable brightness, and has a glass (not plastic) window, so you can wipe the dew off without worrying about scratching it.  I find it very difficult to use a finder scope without using the Telrad (or red dot finder) first.

 

It sounds like you are off to a great start.  Over time, the ability to estimate distances and directions will improve, as will the ability to recognize what you are seeing in the eyepiece.  When I started this hobby, I decided to take it slowly, and enjoy each step along the way, rather than worry about doing everything all at once.

[Tony Cifani]

Hello and Welcome!

Great choice on the AD8! You should enjoy this scope for many years to come. I was into this hobby when I was very young, and then took a long break for over thirty years but the fascination with the night sky never ended. My first eyepiece purchase was the incredibly ordinary Meade 26mm Plossl, and this was the only eyepiece I used for quite a while. At some point, if you haven't already done so, you may want to consider purchasing another eyepiece or two of shorter focal length (more magnification). Maybe something in the 10-12mm range or possibly a good zoom eyepiece. More magnification means more detail on most extended objects, and also a perceived darkening of the sky background, which is helpful for viewing small faint objects like M57. But for now, enjoy your new scope!

[SeattleScott]

You describe classic atmospheric dispersion. When you look through a thick layer of atmosphere, the spectrum gets separated a bit by the lensing of the atmosphere, so you see blue on one side and red on the other. Particularly when looking at bright objects low in the sky, because when you look at something low, you are looking through a lot more atmosphere.

When you came back to Antares later, the blue was gone, because it was higher in the sky so less dispersion.

It is fun looking at bright stars low in the sky. They twinkle like Christmas lights because of all the atmosphere you are looking through.

Open clusters are rewarding targets. M39 is nice, although can be hard to identify due to being in such a rich star field. Dumbell is bigger and brighter than Ring, but maybe harder to starhop to. And yeah, M13, maybe M22 depending on your latitude. Lagoon Nebula and Swan Nebula are a couple classics, or get a nebula filter and go after Veil.

[plunk111]

My two cents… Try keeping both eyes open when you’re looking for something using your finder. I think your main problem in finding things is that your finder probably reverses everything. You’ll get used to it, but the red-dot or Telrad are good substitutes.  BTW, you should be able to see M13 in your finder. Good luck!  

[Oldfracguy]

After trying to use the straight-though finder scopes that often come with new telescopes, I went with the RACI (Right Angle Correct Image) type of finder scope.  I see that the new Apertura AD8 comes with an 8x50 RACI.  That is great.  It just takes a little practice using it, but once you get the hang of it you will appreciate how the views in the RACI match a star chart so you can navigate to your target by "star hopping".  The view of the object you see in the AD8's eyepiece will be upside down and left-right reversed, but locating the object with a correct image orientation in the first place is much easier and intuitive.

 

Best of luck with your new scope, and Welcome to Cloudy Nights 

[severencir]

 I also have a 10x50 binocular with me for those wider easier views.

 

Congratulations on successfully getting started. I suspect you will find it useful to have, either in software or on paper, charts at several different scales, and also a small binocular to use as a "pre-finder" before you start using your telescope's finder.

 

Clear sky ...

 

 

M13 is easily visible in small binoculars. I advise using them to help get your bearings for aiming the scope. 
 

When I had a scope like yours the Telrad was an enormous help. 
 

Also the common 5 gallon bucket makes a good chair . Add a small cushion . 
When the session is over place the cushion back in the bucket, and you have a carrier for small items. 

I see several people recommending binos, i am hesitant because it would be another not insignificant investment, and im already pretty good at using my eye to identify the region of the sky i should be in. Would binoculars really be as much of a help as is implied and worth forgoing other things like filters and dew straps, or am i ok to just get used to navigating with just my eyes, telrad, finder, and scope?

 

Also, the bucket idea is actually pretty good, and would probably save some trips when setting up 

 

 

Bortle 4 is great, you should be able to see a lot from there when the weather and moon co-operate. And while we often complain about the moon blotting out so many objects, as you have discovered, the moon is one of the best things to look at in a telescope.  The view changes every night as the angle of light coming from the sun changes and highlights different features, so there is a lot of observing to be done on the moon.

 

I love the challenge of finding objects.  To me, it is one of the best parts of the hobby.  You mentioned Turn Left at Orion, which is good, but I found it unusable by itself for finding objects, or even constellations, because I could not correlate the little diagrams to the sky, as there was no sense of scale or context.  The descriptions of where to hop from-to were also hard because I couldn't tell if I was starting from the right spot or headed in the right direction.

 

The Cambridge Star Atlas has been my main guide for my entire astronomy journey of 14 years.  I like this book because each page covers a significant portion of the sky, so it is easy to find stars and constellations that you can identify, turn the map to match the view in the sky, then find out where you need to go next.  It has enough detail to keep you busy for a long time looking at new things.  I use this book to come up with general estimates of where something should be (for example, M13 is about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down from the top of the keystone on the right side, or M57 is between the 2 bottom stars of the parallelogram, a little off center), then hunt around some, exactly as you have done.  There are many atlases with their own pros and cons, but many of them are so zoomed in that it's hard to figure out where things are in relation to the rest of the sky

 

You will love your Telrad for many reasons.  It is easy to use, has very adjustable brightness, and has a glass (not plastic) window, so you can wipe the dew off without worrying about scratching it.  I find it very difficult to use a finder scope without using the Telrad (or red dot finder) first.

 

It sounds like you are off to a great start.  Over time, the ability to estimate distances and directions will improve, as will the ability to recognize what you are seeing in the eyepiece.  When I started this hobby, I decided to take it slowly, and enjoy each step along the way, rather than worry about doing everything all at once.

I will keep your recommendations in mind. I havent felt frustrated yet so far, just occasionally disappointed, but i alcame into this aware that i am a novice at a real skill and would need practice to get good at it, so I'm not demotivated and i feel like i exceeded my own expectations. I actually started with m57 mostly just because i wanted an early win, and i felt like i could find it most easily given my practice with vega. The satisfaction of successfully locating things is great though.

 

 

Hello and Welcome!

Great choice on the AD8! You should enjoy this scope for many years to come. I was into this hobby when I was very young, and then took a long break for over thirty years but the fascination with the night sky never ended. My first eyepiece purchase was the incredibly ordinary Meade 26mm Plossl, and this was the only eyepiece I used for quite a while. At some point, if you haven't already done so, you may want to consider purchasing another eyepiece or two of shorter focal length (more magnification). Maybe something in the 10-12mm range or possibly a good zoom eyepiece. More magnification means more detail on most extended objects, and also a perceived darkening of the sky background, which is helpful for viewing small faint objects like M57. But for now, enjoy your new scope!

I have a 9mm, but it's so magnified that i find it difficult to use well. I've been practicing with it, but i have only gotten a bit of use out of it. Thanks for the recommendations of what to look for next though.

 

 

My two cents… Try keeping both eyes open when you’re looking for something using your finder. I think your main problem in finding things is that your finder probably reverses everything. You’ll get used to it, but the red-dot or Telrad are good substitutes.  BTW, you should be able to see M13 in your finder. Good luck!  

I have a right angle finder (came with the ad8) so keeping both eyes open isn't much help im afraid. It's also not reversed, i assume a corrector prism in the right angle.

 

One of the reasons i wanted to try m13 is that it was supposed to be easy to notice based on what i read, but i couldn't even find it in my finder. I'll probably try to research a bit more about what I'm doing wrong with it today. Thanks for the reassurance.

 

 

You describe classic atmospheric dispersion. When you look through a thick layer of atmosphere, the spectrum gets separated a bit by the lensing of the atmosphere, so you see blue on one side and red on the other. Particularly when looking at bright objects low in the sky, because when you look at something low, you are looking through a lot more atmosphere.

When you came back to Antares later, the blue was gone, because it was higher in the sky so less dispersion.

It is fun looking at bright stars low in the sky. They twinkle like Christmas lights because of all the atmosphere you are looking through.

Open clusters are rewarding targets. M39 is nice, although can be hard to identify due to being in such a rich star field. Dumbell is bigger and brighter than Ring, but maybe harder to starhop to. And yeah, M13, maybe M22 depending on your latitude. Lagoon Nebula and Swan Nebula are a couple classics, or get a nebula filter and go after Veil.

Ah, that's actually very good to know. I knew i was seeing atmospheric dispersion when the moon looked blueish at the edges occasionally, but i didn't connect it to antares. Thanks for the info. Now i want to try to reproduce it with other stars. I also bought an optolong uhc filter along with my telrad. I will keep those recommendations in mind, thank you. Any favorite stars to observe too? 

 

 

[dnrmilspec]

That was a great first post and one that brought back memories.  It will be good for other new astronomers to see that they are not alone in their struggles and triumphs.  Keep at it and keep us informed of your journey.

 

Welcome to Cloudy Nights.  I hope you enjoy your time here.

[vintageair]

I bought an AD10 a couple of months ago so similar experience. It's an instrument, much like a guitar and you need to learn how to play it. The Telrad will be your buddy, start with it, fine tune with finder and your target will be dead center when you go to the eyepiece providing you've aligned everything well. The Telrad is much easier to align than a red dot finder. Another good book is "110 things to see with a telescope" It's sort of a logbook for the Messier list and has good charts oriented properly for the flipped Newtonian view. The second most important accessory will be an adjustable observer's chair comfort is an important aspect. Thirdly I would highly recommend the two inch GSO 2x Barlow which will also allow you to mount a DSLR if you want. You can unscrew the lens and screw it directly into the T-adapter for a 1.5x view. Without it the Dob will not achieve prime focus.

 

I'm psyched and looking forward to many years of adventure with my new toy. There is an event called the Golden State Star Party next month that will be in some very dark sky and I'm set to attend.

[Dave Mitsky]

While it doesn't deal with using a telescope directly, you may find some of the information on astronomy, amateur astronomy, and observing presented in my post (#22) at https://www.cloudyni...mers/?p=5184287 useful, severencir. There are sections on various books, observing guides, the Moon, the planets, star-hopping, stellar atlases, planispheres, planetarium programs, astronomy apps, deep-sky objects, lists of worthwhile celestial objects to observe, binocular astronomy, urban astronomy, and other related topics.

[EsaT]

Along with the scope, i bought a 25mm eyepiece and a folding chair.
 

 

The first thing i noticed was that i should not have tried to rely on that folding chair. It was great when trying to look near the horizon, but i wasn't wanting to focus on the horizon. It was terrible for anything semi high, and i am too tall to comfortably lean down to use it.

 

 

 I went on to collimating it, and i found out that it's hard to see screws in the dark, but i was able to fumble my way into getting it collimated.

 

I then figured that if i can align to vega, i could probably try to see m57. It did not go well.
 

 

After that i started trying to make my way to hercules to try to find m13. I spent a long time here,..

I didn't yet know it, but my finder and my eyepiece were starting to fog up, so i struggled a bit, but found albireo and it was pretty cool. I switched my eyepiece out for my 25mm one because it wasn't fogged, and got a much better view.

25mm Plössl was unnecessary purchase with bundled 30mm GSO SuperView being far better for the telescope.

In ~1200mm focal length telescopes 25mm Plössl's view is too narrow for wide low magnification objects, while for non-wide objects magnification is lacking.

 

Though it works as cheap backup in case of fogged up eyepiece.

As you noticed fog is killer for being able to see image, no matter on what optical surface it is.

(primary mirror tolerates lots of dust before it becomes problem)

So don't use that eyepiece holder on mount, because it lets eyepieces radiate their heat away and cool to below ambient and possibly to air's dew point.

Instead would be better to keep eyepieces slightly warmer than ambient, like in jacket's pocket, or at least covered in some case.

(warm eyepiece takes longer time to cool to dewpoint than already cold eyepiece)

 

 

There are ready made adjustable observing chairs, but you could also build one.

Here are some links to get ideas:

http://www.alexastro...enver Chair.pdf

https://astro.catshi...m/denver-chair/

https://davetrott.co...bserving-chair/

https://www.msfastro...nver_chair.html

 

 

 

As for aligning the finder scope, it's better to do/practise it during daylight if you have reasonably long distance view.

Everything is simply always easier when you can see easily what you're doing.

Sure there are all flashlights, but we have this bad design of only two hands.

(headlamp is good for leaving hands free if you don't have other people around)

 

Also collimation (alignment of telescope's mirrors) is best practised in day light for same reason.

Though laser collimator makes adjusting primary mirror easy in dark.

For good accuracy/reliability it just needs to be Barlowed:

http://www.smartavtweaks.com/RVBL.html

 

 

Finding M57 is easy when finding stars forming the constellation of Lyra.

https://en.wikipedia...le:Lyra_IAU.svg

Just look at to what direction from Vega those stars are on the sky, and then start turning telescope to that direction while looking into finder scope.

RACI finder showing normal up/down and left/right directions should make it easy to find those stars.

Then you just center that lower part of constellation in finder's view and you should see M57 in eyepiece.

 

Caveat is M57 being very compact object and you might struggle to recognize it at low magnifications.

So once finding it, you might want to swap to bundled 9mm eyepiece to see something more than bloated fuzzy star.

Though because of 9mm Plössl having little eye relief and by modern standards narrow view per magnification, you might want to upgrade that.

 

 

M13 is easy to find after learning to recognize that center "box" of Hercules.

https://en.wikipedia...ercules_IAU.svg

Then you just trace the line between those two stars while looking into finder.

50mm finder scope shows it easily as fuzzy blob.

Though once again it really needs higher magnification to show well with separate stars.

 

 

Besides initial finding of object 30mm SuperView is good for observing for example Pleiades or Andromeda Galaxy with its satellite galaxies M32 and M110.

But also details of Andromeda Galaxy need more magnification to make them easier to distinguish:

Eye, especially low light scotopic vision, has quite low spatial resolution for low contrast details.

So disntinguishing surface details is easiest when there's enough magnification to increase image size, but not too much.

[severencir]

25mm Plössl was unnecessary purchase with bundled 30mm GSO SuperView being far better for the telescope.

In ~1200mm focal length telescopes 25mm Plössl's view is too narrow for wide low magnification objects, while for non-wide objects magnification is lacking.

 

Though it works as cheap backup in case of fogged up eyepiece.

As you noticed fog is killer for being able to see image, no matter on what optical surface it is.

(primary mirror tolerates lots of dust before it becomes problem)

So don't use that eyepiece holder on mount, because it lets eyepieces radiate their heat away and cool to below ambient and possibly to air's dew point.

Instead would be better to keep eyepieces slightly warmer than ambient, like in jacket's pocket, or at least covered in some case.

(warm eyepiece takes longer time to cool to dewpoint than already cold eyepiece)

 

 

There are ready made adjustable observing chairs, but you could also build one.

Here are some links to get ideas:

http://www.alexastro...enver Chair.pdf

https://astro.catshi...m/denver-chair/

https://davetrott.co...bserving-chair/

https://www.msfastro...nver_chair.html

 

 

 

As for aligning the finder scope, it's better to do/practise it during daylight if you have reasonably long distance view.

Everything is simply always easier when you can see easily what you're doing.

Sure there are all flashlights, but we have this bad design of only two hands.

(headlamp is good for leaving hands free if you don't have other people around)

 

Also collimation (alignment of telescope's mirrors) is best practised in day light for same reason.

Though laser collimator makes adjusting primary mirror easy in dark.

For good accuracy/reliability it just needs to be Barlowed:

http://www.smartavtweaks.com/RVBL.html

 

 

Finding M57 is easy when finding stars forming the constellation of Lyra.

https://en.wikipedia...le:Lyra_IAU.svg

Just look at to what direction from Vega those stars are on the sky, and then start turning telescope to that direction while looking into finder scope.

RACI finder showing normal up/down and left/right directions should make it easy to find those stars.

Then you just center that lower part of constellation in finder's view and you should see M57 in eyepiece.

 

Caveat is M57 being very compact object and you might struggle to recognize it at low magnifications.

So once finding it, you might want to swap to bundled 9mm eyepiece to see something more than bloated fuzzy star.

Though because of 9mm Plössl having little eye relief and by modern standards narrow view per magnification, you might want to upgrade that.

 

 

M13 is easy to find after learning to recognize that center "box" of Hercules.

https://en.wikipedia...ercules_IAU.svg

Then you just trace the line between those two stars while looking into finder.

50mm finder scope shows it easily as fuzzy blob.

Though once again it really needs higher magnification to show well with separate stars.

 

 

Besides initial finding of object 30mm SuperView is good for observing for example Pleiades or Andromeda Galaxy with its satellite galaxies M32 and M110.

But also details of Andromeda Galaxy need more magnification to make them easier to distinguish:

Eye, especially low light scotopic vision, has quite low spatial resolution for low contrast details.

So disntinguishing surface details is easiest when there's enough magnification to increase image size, but not too much.

I realized after using them that the 25mm was probably not an ideal purchase, but it was reasonably cheap and i assumed from my early research that it'd be a good compromise between tfov and detail. That said, i do think the moon looks better in it (while the 9mm is too magnified to get a full view), and having it extended my session last night by about an hour when my finder and 30mm fogged up too much, so i actually don't regret the purchase. It also seems to blur a bit less toward the edges than my 30mm, but that could just be my imagination.

I actually did practice operation during the day and found everything easy when i could see what i was doing, and that's why i set out last night at dusk to do similarly before using it. Those are great short term recommendations for helping with the fogging issue until i can budget some powered solutions.

Thank you for the info

[Dave Mitsky]

There are illustrated star hops for over 270 objects at https://www.skyledge.net/index.htm
 

Click on https://freestarcharts.com/ for simple finder charts and information on objects in the Messier Catalog and a number of IC and NGC objects.

 

Telrad finder charts for the 110 Messier objects can be found at https://www.star-shi...ssierTelrad.htm and https://www.mnastro....nder-charts.pdf

 

Monthly sky maps and lists of objects to observe are available at https://www.skymaps.com/downloads.html and https://kenpress.com/

 

[severencir]

There are illustrated star hops for over 270 objects at https://www.skyledge.net/index.htm
 

Click on https://freestarcharts.com/ for simple finder charts and information on objects in the Messier Catalog and a number of IC and NGC objects.

 

Telrad finder charts for the 110 Messier objects can be found at https://www.star-shi...ssierTelrad.htm and https://www.mnastro....nder-charts.pdf

 

Monthly sky maps and lists of objects to observe are available at https://www.skymaps.com/downloads.html and https://kenpress.com/

That's very helpful, i will probably be coming back to this thread for a while because there are a lot of data here that i simply don't have a whole lot of time to get to quickly. I appreciate the help

[Dave Mitsky]

I see several people recommending binos, i am hesitant because it would be another not insignificant investment, and im already pretty good at using my eye to identify the region of the sky i should be in. Would binoculars really be as much of a help as is implied and worth forgoing other things like filters and dew straps, or am i ok to just get used to navigating with just my eyes, telrad, finder, and scope?

Binoculars are very useful for planning star hops and offer a completely different way of observing.  There are a number of celestial objects that are too large to fit into the true fields of view of most telescopes that can be seen in their entirety using binoculars.  Scanning the summer Milky Way from a dark site with binoculars can be a fantastic experience.

 

A quality narrowband nebula filter, commonly referred to as a UHC filter, is worth having but that can wait for later.

[SeattleScott]

Albireo is a nice colorful double. Almach also.

But yeah, kind of whatever bright star is low on the horizon at the time if you want the colorful twinkling effect.

[Jay_Reynolds_Freeman]

I see several people recommending binos, i am hesitant because it would be another not insignificant investment, and im already pretty good at using my eye to identify the region of the sky i should be in. Would binoculars really be as much of a help as is implied and worth forgoing other things like filters and dew straps, or am i ok to just get used to navigating with just my eyes, telrad, finder, and scope?

I would say that you are definitely okay without binoculars -- no need to rush out and buy one -- but if you can get access to one that is lying around, or indeed, can find any kind of small hand-held telescope to use, it will help a great deal in figuring out where to point the finder of your telescope and what to look for in it.

 

Many of us end up with a binocular after a while even if we didn't have one to start with, both for the reason just discussed and because it is easy to use, and the wide-field views it provides can be very spectacular.

 

 

Clear sky ...

[EsaT]

It also seems to blur a bit less toward the edges than my 30mm, but that could just be my imagination.

~60% wider apparent FOV (AFOV) demands lot more from eyepiece design and just one lens element more isn't enough for correcting aberrations of the eyepiece well enough.

Or it would do that, if telescope had focal ratio of f/8 or longer.

Shorter focal ratio telescope has "wider", faster converging cone of light and those more oblique light rays are harder for the eyepiece.

 

But five element designs is all you get in long focal length wide AFOV eyepieces untill going to ~$200 level.

(pre-Trump price, not sure what it's now)

 

So you propably don't want to go there, at least untill knowing what you're going to observe most.

I mean if you end up observing mostly the Moon, low magnifications aren't good for that.

 

 

And you have most other magnification steps missing.

 

While that bundled 9mm Plössl is start for higher magnifications, it being Plössl makes it problematic:

First of all eye relief (maximum distance your pupil can be from eye lens of the eyepiece for seeing whole view) is always 2/3rds of Plössl's focal length.

So in case on 9mm Plössl, you have to cram your eye to 6mm distance from it.

Second Plössl's AFOV is rather narrow by modern standards, which makes finding and keeping target in view harder than necessary.

(in 8" Dobson magnification of 9mm eyepiece would be good for M57)

 

As cheap upgrade from Plössl's issues Svbony had modern design 9mm eyepiece with wide AFOV and longer eye relief for very reasonable price. But now also that might be significantly more expensive in US.

So unless finding some US stock of it/equivalent at older price, there might not be cheap upgrades.

 

And 9mm is really just starting level/low magnification for lunar/planetary observing.

Then you would need one medium magnification step between that and 30mm.

 

 

Barlow would be one way for that, if you don't want to get so many seprate eyepieces.

While Barlow isn't any automatic/universal solution, couple well chosen eyepieces and good Barlow can give lots of flexibility for viewing different objects.

Including making that 30mm do double duty for medium magnification... with cleaned out outer field because of effectively longer focal ratio.

And Barlowing ~9mm eyepiece would give higher lunar/planetary observing magnifications to start testing your seeing conditions.

[MikeTahtib]

 

I see several people recommending binos, i am hesitant because it would be another not insignificant investment, and im already pretty good at using my eye to identify the region of the sky i should be in. Would binoculars really be as much of a help as is implied and worth forgoing other things like filters and dew straps, or am i ok to just get used to navigating with just my eyes, telrad, finder, and scope?

I would not recommend binos if you are on a budget.  They are a totally different type of observing, different targets, different techniques.  While you will be able to see the objects you are looking for now, they will be tiny, and while you may be able to see them, you won't be able to see what they look like.  M13 will look like a bumpy little (tiny) ball.  They are useful and fun, but I think they will be a distraction from your telescope.  People are recommending them as an aid in finding things, but you already have a finder scope and  Telrad on the way.  With those together, attached to your scope, you will find things much easier. The binos would fill a gap between them, but they aren't attached to your scope, so even if you find something with them, you still have to go find it with your telrad and finderscope.    A good dew heating system is not cheap, but will keep you observing when you would otherwise have to shut everything down.  There are plenty of other things I would get to fill out your telescope capabilities before embarking on a whole new way to observe (and the finder scope will be good for typical bino targets like the Pleiades or Beehive cluster, or double cluster).  Dew heater, more & wider field eyepeices, a nebula filter (makes a big difference if you like nebulas, more so in light polluted skies, but also useful in dark skies.)  Sounds like you might like an observing chair (or maybe some more buckets to stack up.)

[vintageair]

I tried to use my 20x50 Skywatcher binos as an aid to finding targets but they were of no help. The transit from bino to naked eye to scope was not relatable in any useful way. A good chart and a Telrad gave me the most success. I'm on a personal challenge so have vowed not to use any smartphone apps.

Edited by vintageair, 30 May 2025 - 06:45 PM.

[Dave Mitsky]

A 20x50 binocular would be quite difficult to hand hold and has a rather small field of view.  I certainly do not recommend one for surveying potential star hops.  A 10x50 is generally the maximum size recommended for hand-held use.