22 replies to this topic

[kingsbishop]

I have recently bought a 0.5 diopters dioptrix as I have 0.75 diopter astigmatism and when I put it against my eye it seems to clear up my vision when I look at landscape or big objects but when it comes to looking at point sources it doesn’t work one bit the flares and streaks stay. What have I done wrong it would show only 0.25 diopters which wouldn’t really show since my pupil isn’t fully dialated so why am I still seeing spikes and I am starting to wonder if it really is astigmatism that is causing those spikes from point sources or another issue such as spherical aberration but I know it is an issue that is occurring at the edge of my pupil since it gets less as I mask down my pupil size

Can anyone tell me what’s wrong?

[TOMDEY]

Sounds indeed like it's your eyes.  A ~full service optometrist~ can get an idea, and a ophthalmologist with advanced equipment can determine the cause. He will map out the Zernike Circle Polynomials and Impulse Response of your vision. It may not be pretty... but at least you'll know what's going on and if and how it might be addressed. Most people have poor to terrible full-pupil wavefront performance. In that sense --- you're not alone!   Tom

[TOMDEY]

PS: In that sense, it's not a faulty Dioptrx... but (alas) faulty eyes. This can often be successfully addressed with PRK or LASIK.   Tom

Edited by TOMDEY, 03 June 2025 - 02:52 AM.

[kingsbishop]

Sounds indeed like it's your eyes. A ~full service optometrist~ can get an idea, and a ophthalmologist with advanced equipment can determine the cause. He will map out the Zernike Circle Polynomials and Impulse Response of your vision. It may not be pretty... but at least you'll know what's going on and if and how it might be addressed. Most people have poor to terrible full-pupil wavefront performance. In that sense --- you're not alone! Tom

I would think my optometrist would tell me if it was something serious and surely it can’t be too bad since I’m only 20

[TOMDEY]

I would think my optometrist would tell me if it was something serious and surely it can’t be too bad since I’m only 20

Absolutely true! Not to worry, it's not a disease thing, and actually in the normal scheme of things. By far the most common cause of "flares and streaks" seen especially on bright point objects is irregularities in the cornea or farther inside stuff... If your vision is Snellen 20/20 or better, or correctable to that with glasses --- we commonly call that "perfect vision". All the flares and streaks mean is that your wavefronts have lumps and bumps (in phase) that are not addressable with regular eyeglasses --- things (the higher order Zernike Circle Polynomial Terms) that a scan will at least quantify. So, to your opening question/observation --- the higher order terms (some of them) can diminish those with an elective surgery. The Dioptrx itself is not to blame.    Tom

 

[I got PRKs both eyes... which helped a lot.]

 

PS: Most (amateur astronomer) patients are startled and annoyed when they see their average eye's impulse responses as analyzed by the measurements --- quite non-ideal and ugly, when compared with what we demand of our telescopes. I know --- I've seen mine and others --- they typically look like "terribly pinched optics" that an irate customer would send back to the dealer with a nasty letter, "Your quality control stinks. How can you sell us this junk?! I want a full refund and an apology." Similarity: I have terrible arthritis and was annoyed when I saw the X-Rays of my bones. Joint replacements could fix that... but I'm waiting until it gets worse...    Tom

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[kingsbishop]

Absolutely true! Not to worry, it's not a disease thing, and actually in the normal scheme of things. By far the most common cause of "flares and streaks" seen especially on bright point objects is irregularities in the cornea or farther inside stuff... If your vision is Snellen 20/20 or better, or correctable to that with glasses --- we commonly call that "perfect vision". All the flares and streaks mean is that your wavefronts have lumps and bumps (in phase) that are not addressable with regular eyeglasses --- things (the higher order Zernike Circle Polynomial Terms) that a scan will at least quantify. So, to your opening question/observation --- the higher order terms (some of them) can diminish those with an elective surgery. The Dioptrx itself is not to blame. Tom

[I got PRKs both eyes... which helped a lot.]

PS: Most (amateur astronomer) patients are startled and annoyed when they see their average eye's impulse responses as analyzed by the measurements --- quite non-ideal and ugly, when compared with what we demand of our telescopes. I know --- I've seen mine and others --- they typically look like "terribly pinched optics" that an irate customer would send back to the dealer with a nasty letter, "Your quality control stinks. How can you sell us this junk?! I want a full refund and an apology." Similarity: I have terrible arthritis and was annoyed when I saw the X-Rays of my bones. Joint replacements could fix that... but I'm waiting until it gets worse... Tom

interesting to know I had a feeling

I think I figured out what was wrong. Stupid me didn’t realize that the telescope view of a star doesn’t look the same as looking at a point source with the naked eye since the telescope view I see a few streaks and stuff but with the naked eye I see a starburst around the point source kind of like a dimmer spiky halo around the point source with the naked eye and since I am slightly short sighted the short sightedness amplifies the astigmatism effects because I have also noticed as I move closer towards the point source the halo gets less but I don’t see much of a spiky halo around stars with a telescope since I can adjust the focus, could I be right?

[Starman1]

Astigmatism typically worsens as the pupils dilate at night. Likelihood is that you should have gotten a 1.0 diopter DioptRx.
Also, if the spikes in the scope are not due to the secondary spider, they could indicate miscollimation of the optics.
If you look through the DioptRx at naked eye stars, are they points? If not, it's possible you might need glasses. There are lots of glasses-compatible eyepieces these days.

[kingsbishop]

Astigmatism typically worsens as the pupils dilate at night. Likelihood is that you should have gotten a 1.0 diopter DioptRx.
Also, if the spikes in the scope are not due to the secondary spider, they could indicate miscollimation of the optics.
If you look through the DioptRx at naked eye stars, are they points? If not, it's possible you might need glasses. There are lots of glasses-compatible eyepieces these days.

it’s not that the astigmatism worsens it’s that more of the bad astigmatism is visible. If you got measured 0.75 diopters then that is your astigmatism but that number won’t increase it’s just that at day time your pupil shrinks and all that bad astigmatism hits your iris and that is why you don’t see it but since your pupil enlargans at night it lets more of the bad light in

But I realized my issue is not the dioptrix as stupid me looked past that the telescope view of a star didn’t look the same as a naked eye view of a point source as the telescope view had slight streaks coming out of the star but the naked eye view of a point source had a dimmer spiky halo around it and since I am slightly short sighted that could have been it because when I move closer to it the halo starts to disappear. Also with a 0.5 diopter dioptrix it still would show a noticeable difference but I didn’t see any difference

[Starman1]

it’s not that the astigmatism worsens it’s that more of the bad astigmatism is visible. If you got measured 0.75 diopters then that is your astigmatism but that number won’t increase it’s just that at day time your pupil shrinks and all that bad astigmatism hits your iris and that is why you don’t see it but since your pupil enlargans at night it lets more of the bad light in

But I realized my issue is not the dioptrix as stupid me looked past that the telescope view of a star didn’t look the same as a naked eye view of a point source as the telescope view had slight streaks coming out of the star but the naked eye view of a point source had a dimmer spiky halo around it and since I am slightly short sighted that could have been it because when I move closer to it the halo starts to disappear. Also with a 0.5 diopter dioptrix it still would show a noticeable difference but I didn’t see any difference

If your vision is corrected, the naked eye view of a star differs only in that the scope image may have spikes due to the spider vanes supporting the secondary and the diffraction rings around the star due to the aperture opening.
Both should appear pointlike however, and appear round.

[kingsbishop]

If your vision is corrected, the naked eye view of a star differs only in that the scope image may have spikes due to the spider vanes supporting the secondary and the diffraction rings around the star due to the aperture opening.
Both should appear pointlike however, and appear round.

It’s not the diffraction spikes causing it I can see the spikes easily but now noticing I think the reason why the dioptrix wasn’t working was because I looked through it through the naked eye not the telescope because it worked on the telescope

[Starman1]

It’s not the diffraction spikes causing it I can see the spikes easily but now noticing I think the reason why the dioptrix wasn’t working was because I looked through it through the naked eye not the telescope because it worked on the telescope

Ah.  So the DioptRx didn't correct your vision naked eye because you need a refractive/distance correction in addition to an astigmatism correction, and the DioptRx only corrects the astigmatism.

In the telescope, you can correct the distance correction merely by refocusing.  That wasn't clear from your previous post.

 

What that means, though, is if you want to see good star images through an optical finder, Telrad, or naked eye as well as through the telescope, you're going to need to wear glasses to see that.

Since the DioptRx works on the scope, you could just hang a pair of glasses, that fully correct your vision, around your neck on a lanyard, and take the glasses off when looking through the scope and put them on for those other views. 

[kingsbishop]

Ah. So the DioptRx didn't correct your vision naked eye because you need a refractive/distance correction in addition to an astigmatism correction, and the DioptRx only corrects the astigmatism.
In the telescope, you can correct the distance correction merely by refocusing. That wasn't clear from your previous post.

What that means, though, is if you want to see good star images through an optical finder, Telrad, or naked eye as well as through the telescope, you're going to need to wear glasses to see that.
Since the DioptRx works on the scope, you could just hang a pair of glasses, that fully correct your vision, around your neck on a lanyard, and take the glasses off when looking through the scope and put them on for those other views.

honestly though glasses at my level of bad eyesight do more harm than good since they get dirty and the frames distract me and make me feel I’m looking through a computer screen even with frameless ones and glasses wipes don’t fully work to clean them and there a times I accidentally breathe on them even when correctly placed but anyway my eyes aren’t bad enough to need them. All they do is make the view crystal clear

[kingsbishop]

Ah. So the DioptRx didn't correct your vision naked eye because you need a refractive/distance correction in addition to an astigmatism correction, and the DioptRx only corrects the astigmatism.
In the telescope, you can correct the distance correction merely by refocusing. That wasn't clear from your previous post.

What that means, though, is if you want to see good star images through an optical finder, Telrad, or naked eye as well as through the telescope, you're going to need to wear glasses to see that.
Since the DioptRx works on the scope, you could just hang a pair of glasses, that fully correct your vision, around your neck on a lanyard, and take the glasses off when looking through the scope and put them on for those other views.

Yeah I didn’t mention that because I have a bad habit of discovering an issue and getting impatient and running to Cloudy Nights for a quick answer even before I test other alternatives like waiting to get home from the post office after collecting my dioptrix and waiting for it to turn night to test it out so I just tested it in my car on a distant point source such as a distant street light but when I figured out the issue when I put it through my 12 inch and figured out the issue I already made this post and Tom already replied so it was too late

[GADify]

Wanted to comment about the eye topography because at the age of 60 I finally found an optometrist who took my complaints of glasses not correcting my vision enough seriously. He scanned my corneas and gave me the topography report which shows that I have multiple astigmatisms as well as EBMD. He told me that glasses would never give me the vision I was seeking and that the only way I could get close was with custom RGP (hard) contacts.

I have super sensitive corneas so wearing them was an adjustment for sure, but my vision has not been this clear in probably 40 years.

Edited by GADify, 04 June 2025 - 10:22 AM.

[EmDrive2821]

If your vision is fine with your eyeglasses, I would think that the problem is not your eyes.  When there is a problem with the eyes that affects resolution, typically, the quality of vision at near and/or distance will likely be obvious with corrective lenses on.   Good vision with the glasses on, most likely indicates that there are no changes, medically or refractive.  

 

My first choice would before consulting with my eye care provider, would be to review the equipment setup with a Tele Vue consultant.  If that got you nowhere, try the Dioptrix with another telescope system and see what happens.  Of course these are armchair suggestions, not evidence based, and anything is possible.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gary

[kingsbishop]

If your vision is fine with your eyeglasses, I would think that the problem is not your eyes. When there is a problem with the eyes that affects resolution, typically, the quality of vision at near and/or distance will likely be obvious with corrective lenses on. Good vision with the glasses on, most likely indicates that there are no changes, medically or refractive.

My first choice would before consulting with my eye care provider, would be to review the equipment setup with a Tele Vue consultant. If that got you nowhere, try the Dioptrix with another telescope system and see what happens. Of course these are armchair suggestions, not evidence based, and anything is possible.

Best wishes,

Gary

nah it doesn’t correct with both glasses and dioptrix. I am starting to think it’s not astigmatism after all. When i look at a distant streetlight i see a dimmer spiky halo around it and I know the cause of it is not out of focus because I tested it with glasses to make my eyes in focus. But if i can’t find a solution to correct it I will just stick with 1mm exit pupil and say that’s the best

[EmDrive2821]

With that being clearly stated in Post #16 (no pun intended), I think that as TOMDEY suggested in Post #3, a consult with your eye care provider regarding this specific problem would most likely be helpful.  Although pathology is possible, it might just be a change in refractive error.  Does a pinhole reduce symptoms ?  That could be revealing.   Statistically speaking, refractive error does not necessarily stabilize at age 20.  Typically at 20 years old, risk for anything serious is low and vision should be at its peak.  Best wishes.

 

Gary

[kingsbishop]

With that being clearly stated in Post #16 (no pun intended), I think that as TOMDEY suggested in Post #3, a consult with your eye care provider regarding this specific problem would most likely be helpful. Although pathology is possible, it might just be a change in refractive error. Does a pinhole reduce symptoms ? That could be revealing. Statistically speaking, refractive error does not necessarily stabilize at age 20. Typically at 20 years old, risk for anything serious is low and vision should be at its peak. Best wishes.

Gary

yes pinholes do reduce symptoms. To me when I look at street light I can see a fainter starburst spikes ring around it and using a dioptrix does not reduce the issue

[Starman1]

yes pinholes do reduce symptoms. To me when I look at street light I can see a fainter starburst spikes ring around it and using a dioptrix does not reduce the issue

Like me, you have a combination of astigmatism and refractive error.

In a telescope, a DioptRx can control astigmatism, and refocusing can control the refractive error.

But holding up a DioptRx to the eye to look at a streetlight doesn't work because there is no refractive correction.

 

This is why I wear glasses at the eyepiece--I can look at the sky, through my finder, and through the scope and see sharply focused star images all 3 ways.

The DioptRx only corrects one of those three views.

Edited by Starman1, 16 June 2025 - 10:37 AM.

[kingsbishop]

Like me, you have a combination of astigmatism and refractive error.
In a telescope, a DioptRx can control astigmatism, and refocusing can control the refractive error.
But holding up a DioptRx to the eye to look at a streetlight doesn't work because there is no refractive correction.

This is why I wear glasses at the eyepiece--I can look at the sky, through my finder, and through the scope and see sharply focused star images all 3 ways.
The DioptRx only corrects one of those three views.

I tried refocusing and it doesn’t work. It puts the star into focus but the spikes around it are still there. I then put the dioptrix on and they didn’t go away. I tried rotating the dioptrix and still nothing. I am starting to wonder if it’s irregular astigmatism but why at my age

[Starman1]

I tried refocusing and it doesn’t work. It puts the star into focus but the spikes around it are still there. I then put the dioptrix on and they didn’t go away. I tried rotating the dioptrix and still nothing. I am starting to wonder if it’s irregular astigmatism but why at my age

Other than spikes from the secondary spider, other sources of spikes:

Coma

miscollimation

Bad seeing

astigmatism in the optics

Map-dot-fingerprint dystrophy on the cornea (usually caused by dry eyes)

cataracts

bad floaters

 

If the spikes don't change direction 90° on either side of focus, it's not astigmatism.

It's then one of the other issues.

[kingsbishop]

Other than spikes from the secondary spider, other sources of spikes:
Coma
miscollimation
Bad seeing
astigmatism in the optics
Map-dot-fingerprint dystrophy on the cornea (usually caused by dry eyes)
cataracts
bad floaters

If the spikes don't change direction 90° on either side of focus, it's not astigmatism.
It's then one of the other issues.

Here are the ones I can rule out

Coma - since the abberation occurs in the middle of the field too

Miscollimation - since it effects my naked eye views the same way

Bad seeing - it’s not that

Astigmatism in optics - since the spikes rotate when I rotate my head

Cataracts - it’s not that

Floaters - since the issue improves with smaller exit pupil

So since we ruled those out let’s write down what it could be

Irregular astigmatism in my eye - I would think I’m a bit young for that

Map dot fingerprints dystrophy on cornea - don’t think so since it’s not hazy it is more spiky on point souces

If I can’t find a way to fix my issue I am standing with my 1mm exit pupil point

[Starman1]

Here are the ones I can rule out

Coma - since the abberation occurs in the middle of the field too

Miscollimation - since it effects my naked eye views the same way

Bad seeing - it’s not that

Astigmatism in optics - since the spikes rotate when I rotate my head

Cataracts - it’s not that

Floaters - since the issue improves with smaller exit pupil

So since we ruled those out let’s write down what it could be

Irregular astigmatism in my eye - I would think I’m a bit young for that

Map dot fingerprints dystrophy on cornea - don’t think so since it’s not hazy it is more spiky on point sources

If I can’t find a way to fix my issue I am standing with my 1mm exit pupil point

MDF dystrophy often manifests itself as spikes on lights.

The main point here is to see an ophthalmologist to have your eyes professionally examined, not an optometrist.

Once you rule out what it isn't, you can concentrate on what it is and how to solve it.