40 replies to this topic

[MillennialFalcon]

I got to thinking about dilation drops, wondering if they would be good for astronomy, for a few reasons.

Pupil prep for observing

Pupils stay dilated in the case of a sudden temporary bright light interruption.

For those with older eyes with limited age-related pupil response, this may help dilate eyes to a youthful size.

Most drops with this effect are not OTC, but some homeopathic drops contain belladonna, which Italian women used to use to dilate there eyes for cosmetic reasons.

Has anyone discussed this idea before?

Belladonna is a toxic nightshade, but seems to be safe for eye use.

Does anyone know of OTC drops that will do this?

Edited by MillennialFalcon, 03 June 2025 - 10:04 PM.

[JamesMStephens]

You'd really have to think about whether this would be worth doing.  I've had my eyes dilated for eye exams and have always found it kind of disorienting.  It changes perception subtly and I've found it less than pleasant.

[Jim Waters]

This is a bad idea and potentially dangerous.  Dilation drops will cause distortion. 

[TOMDEY]

I discussed it with my friendly eye doctors (both optometrists and ophthalmologists) who happen to be active amateur astronomers as well. They all knowingly smile and rather strongly recommend against it. The reasons are that it doesn't actually enhance the experience (as one would naively hope) and also health reasons. Similarities would be e.g. drinking alcohol so you can become the life of the party (illusion), dilating your pupils to attract the other gender, inject Botox to look like a paralyzed mannequin, or buy a Pocket Hose to carry around (in your pocket) "just in case something needs watering".    Tom

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[MillennialFalcon]

Agreed that the RX stuff might be too "strong."

 

But the OTC homeopathic stuff is a curiousity. These are not marketed as dilators, but rather daily use Eye Relief drops, with no suggested use limit.

 

They contain Belladonna, but there is no mention of dilation. My thought is they might be milder/safer while also giving good benefits for observing. 

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Edited by MillennialFalcon, 04 June 2025 - 12:37 AM.

[Jon Isaacs]

Agreed that the RX stuff might be too "strong."

 

But the OTC homeopathic stuff is a curiousity. These are not marketed as dilators, but rather daily use Eye Relief drops, with no suggested use limit.

 

They contain Belladonna, but there is no mention of dilation. My thought is they might be milder/safer while also giving good benefits for observing. 

 

Your eye dilates quickly to it's maximum diameter, it takes less than a minute of darker skies. About 10 years ago, I measured my dark adapted pupil by photographing my face in a closet with a flash.  I would go into the closet, wait about a minute and then take a photo.  At that time I was 67 years of age and my pupil measured 7.7-7.8mm.  

 

Belladonna does dilate your pupils.  

 

This is the thing:  Dark adaptation is primarily a photo-chemical process, the development of Rhodopsin.   That is why it takes time to become dark adapted. Light bleaches the Rhodopsin causing the loss of dark adaptation.  This is what we try to protect.   The reason a red light can protect your night vision is that the bleaching process is relatively insensitive to red light.  

 

Large pupils have little advantage for amateur astronomy because the majority of viewing is done at smaller exit pupils/higher magnifications. 

 

Jon

[ChristianG]

Well, label says Belladonna 6X. 
 

Doesn't that mean, in homeopathic language, diluted 100 times 6 times, i.e. 1000000000000 times? We're talking about homeopathy... It's just water...

 

--Christian

[Keith Rivich]

I would be weary of any type of supplement that claims to do anything specific. There is no regulation, no testing and you have no idea what's really in any of these supplements. 

[JoeFaz]

Before reading through the comments, I was going to make two points. Jon and Christian made them already in posts #6 and #7. There is no value in doing this.

 

As Christian suggested, the first clue is "homeopathy." If it's homeopathic, it's also nothing.

[Starman1]

Very bad idea for astronomy.  Any drug that disables the ability of the iris to contract also has an effect on the muscles of the lens and will affect accommodation.

 

Plus, look at the ratios.  The retina may open to 4x the aperture by area when it dark adapts, but the retina's increase in sensitivity is on the order of 10,000x.

Pupil diameter simply doesn't matter in dark adaption unless you are talking the first few seconds in the dark.

[Jon Isaacs]

Very bad idea for astronomy.  Any drug that disables the ability of the iris to contract also has an effect on the muscles of the lens and will affect accommodation.

 

Plus, look at the ratios.  The retina may open to 4x the aperture by area when it dark adapts, but the retina's increase in sensitivity is on the order of 10,000x.

Pupil diameter simply doesn't matter in dark adaption unless you are talking the first few seconds in the dark.

 

 

When I am at our place in the high desert, I turn off the light in the living room, stand there for maybe 20 seconds and watch my pupils open.  Then I open the door and I can see the porch and steps and I walk across to the scopes.  It's dark. 

 

I start observing, it takes 20-30 minutes for my eyes to be somewhat dark adapted, longer to be fully dark adapted.  Stuff I couldn't see when first outside, I am seeing the faint stuff.  This is mostly done at exit pupils of 3mm or less, my pupil diameter has no effect.

 

The sky itself is no longer dark.  

 

Jon

[havasman]

This is only very slightly more likely to work out well for an observer than the suggestion from another genius several years ago on these forums that imbibing psychedelics might be good for a session due to how they too dilate the pupils.

 

Or as Bugs Bunny said, "What a bunch o' maroons."

 

[pretyro]

Well, label says Belladonna 6X. 
 

Doesn't that mean, in homeopathic language, diluted 100 times 6 times, i.e. 1000000000000 times? We're talking about homeopathy... It's just water...

 

--Christian

  Yep.  They didn't even reveal the starting concentration from which the dilution occurred. So the packaging provides no clue whatever about the contents.  Some homeopathic preps are diluted to the extent that the solute is no longer present.

   Back in 1796, homeopathy was not a bad thing, relative to the mercury containing drugs and leeches otherwise used at that time.    Homeopathy medicine, being little more than water, did not cause harm and, at times, lead to beneficial placebo effects.  Now we know better.

[Bill Weir]

This is only very slightly more likely to work out well for an observer than the suggestion from another genius several years ago on these forums that imbibing psychedelics might be good for a session due to how they too dilate the pupils.

 

Or as Bugs Bunny said, "What a bunch o' maroons."

 

Actually while in no way endorsing the practice I could imagine micro dosing might actually increase an observer’s acuity. I say this as someone who lives in the PNW where small blue staining mushrooms abound in the fall. I know several people who do the practice and you’d never know. They are sharp, bright, intelligent people whose ability to learn and remember the scientific names of the various fungi that we forage for as members of my mushroom club amazes me.

 

Personally I prefer my natural dark adaptation and wear a Dark Sky Apparel observing hood I can wrap around my head when light intrudes into my space.

 

Bill

[ausastronomer]

In addition to all of the foregoing reasons, the simple fact is that your eyes are just like most other optical devices.  The further off axis you go the worse the aberrations get. Any gains you think you might experience with the wider pupil will be offset by the degradation in image quality that far off axis.  For instance, most people with mild astigmatism have no problems using eyepieces with a 3mm or 4mm exit pupil, with minimal astigmatism manifesting.  Open the exit pupil up to 6mm or 7mm and those same people have the starship enterprise at warp speed without their glasses or a dioptrix!

Cheers

[Jon Isaacs]

In addition to all of the foregoing reasons, the simple fact is that your eyes are just like most other optical devices.  The further off axis you go the worse the aberrations get. Any gains you think you might experience with the wider pupil will be offset by the degradation in image quality that far off axis.  For instance, most people with mild astigmatism have no problems using eyepieces with a 3mm or 4mm exit pupil, with minimal astigmatism manifesting.  Open the exit pupil up to 6mm or 7mm and those same people have the starship enterprise at warp speed without their glasses or a dioptrix!

Cheers

 

There are those of us who seem to be relatively free of astigmatism in our eyes, even at large exit pupils.  

 

But it is important to realize that a 7mm exit pupil feeds the on-axis view, the larger diameter pupil does not increase the field of view, it just more fully illuminates the existing field.  

 

Jon

[jcj380]

I would be weary of any type of supplement that claims to do anything specific. There is no regulation, no testing and you have no idea what's really in any of these supplements.

 

https://www.bbc.com/...canada-64985191

 

 

 

 

[pretyro]

I would be weary of any type of supplement that claims to do anything specific. There is no regulation, no testing and you have no idea what's really in any of these supplements. 

Ironically, homeopathic remedies being little more than water, are likely safer than commonly available supplements that contain solutes of often unknown identity, provenance, and concentration.

 

https://www.bbc.com/...canada-64985191

  Contaminated eye drops are a problem.  In this case, the homeopathic solution contained boric acid (which is routinely used in common eye drops, perhaps for therapeutic effects, but did not  provide the concentration ) and preservatives (silver sulfate, also at unknown concentration, apparently to mitigate the risks of biological contamination, although it is not recommended https://www.aarp.org...oved-eye-drops/ ). 
    I am not a physician.  Don’t even have the authority derived from operating some slick, youtube site on supplements.  Personally, I would get advice from a Dr or two before taking something.  Of course, they can’t form a considered opinion about supplements either because, supplements being unregulated, their effectiveness and ingredients as advertised can be unreliable.

[GSwaim]

Probably better to consult here than Dr.Google. 

Natural eye dilation would involve less light( a dark light environment or use a red light). 

 

Eye dilation from a licensed MD is medically necessary for a proper eye exam. This isn't something that ought to be done often either. Stay away from unnatural human eye dilation efforts unless you're under the care of a licensed MD.

[Starman1]

Ironically, homeopathic remedies being little more than water, are likely safer than commonly available supplements that contain solutes of often unknown identity, provenance, and concentration.

 

  Contaminated eye drops are a problem.  In this case, the homeopathic solution contained boric acid (which is routinely used in common eye drops, perhaps for therapeutic effects, but did not  provide the concentration ) and preservatives (silver sulfate, also at unknown concentration, apparently to mitigate the risks of biological contamination, although it is not recommended https://www.aarp.org...oved-eye-drops/ ). 
    I am not a physician.  Don’t even have the authority derived from operating some slick, youtube site on supplements.  Personally, I would get advice from a Dr or two before taking something.  Of course, they can’t form a considered opinion about supplements either because, supplements being unregulated, their effectiveness and ingredients as advertised can be unreliable.

It's actually quite simple.  Just stay far away from any product that has this disclaimer on the bottom of its ads:

"The FDA has not evaluated this product.  It is not intended to treat, cure, or prevent any disease".

[Peter Besenbruch]

Contaminated eye drops are a problem. 

This. Bacteria contaminated drops can easily lead to damaged vision, or blindness.

[JoeFaz]

It's actually quite simple.  Just stay far away from any product that has this disclaimer on the bottom of its ads:

"The FDA has not evaluated this product.  It is not intended to treat, cure, or prevent any disease".

It's slightly more complicated than that. This disclaimer must go on certain products. The FDA having a (stupid) policy to not evaluate certain categories of products doesn't automatically preclude them from being worthwhile products. For example, you'll find that disclaimer on any multi-vitamin or legitimate dietary supplement, and yet it's a good idea for most or all people to take a daily multivitamin and some people may want to or even need to take various other dietary supplements.

 

Unfortunately, this disclaimer is more representative of the US governments failure to do their job to regulate industries that need to be regulated, not a statement about individual products. If you want to take a daily multi-vitamin, you will not find a product without this disclaimer. If your doctor wants you to supplement such-and-such in your diet, you will likely run into the same thing. As is often the case, there is no shortage of unscrupulous individuals, including anyone selling homeopathic "remedies," willing to take advantages of the government's unwillingness to regulate much of anything.

[SuiGeneris]

The advice above non-withstanding (its all good, BTW), homeopathy is utter and total nonsense. It is based on the disproven and physically impossible idea that water has "memory", and that diseases can be cured by diluting the "cause" of the disease near-infinitely in water - e.g. the "memory" of what was in the water before it was diluted out of existence somehow cures the condition...but only if you shake (succuss) the water just right at each dilution.

 

A 6X homeopathic dilution of the product shown earlier means the starting solution was diluted 1:100 six times, or in other words, was diluted 1-in-1 million.

[BeltofOrion]

Well, after having had two detached retinas and cataracts removed from both eyes … and follow up exams at six month intervals  … I’ve had my pupils dilated a few times … just a few, mind you.  And every time it takes about three days for the pupils to get back to normal. I don’t know about looking at stars through a scope, but I do know trying to read anything while the darn things are dilated is practically impossible. In my opinion … a bad idea.

Edited by BeltofOrion, 05 June 2025 - 04:28 PM.

[AA5TB]

My “dark” skies are so bright that I lose my dark adaptation if I look at.