34 replies to this topic

[Otto Piechowski]

My mistake. Sorry. Thank you, Don.

[mountain monk]

Otto,

 

Howdy, I’m Jack, and here are some comments. That sentence is the final sentence of Wittgenstein’s first book, Tractatus Logio-Philosophicus, written in the trenches during WWI and published, I think, in 1921. It remained influential until after WWII, in Austria, Germany, and England, until his later work was published, the Philosophical Investigations, Remarks on the Foundations of Mathematics, etc. Many would argue that he was the most important philosopher of the last century, though others would nominate Heidegger. There are many translations of that sentence, I would go with “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.”

 

It is one of many traditions that speak of the limits of language, for instance Taoism’s “The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao.” There are also Jewish and Christian mystical traditions that imply the same thing.  The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent resource on Wittgenstein. Wittgenstein loved German folk tales, as did Gödel, and would give them as examples of a point that cannot be spoken,  whose meaning can be inferred from the story but that  cannot be expressed as a proposition. Here is a story you may enjoy. A famous Tibetan master lived in a shallow grave-like hole in the ground. A young monk once came to him at night and asked “What is the true nature of the Dharma.” The master replied “Do you hear the dogs barking in the village?” ‘Yes.” The master said “That’s it.” Or, many of the answers to Zen koans are acted out physically, but cannot be spoken. Perhaps this is more than you wanted, but it took me back to a former life. I was trained in the modern school on analytic philosophy and mathematical logic, and have been a Zen student for 60 years.

Dark, clear, calm skies.

 

Jack

Edited by mountain monk, 10 June 2025 - 05:45 PM.

[Otto Piechowski]

Thank you Jack.  I learned much from what you wrote.

[Scoper47]

I am not a "star gazer" and don't stargaze. I explore and discover the night sky.  I never liked the layman term "stargazer" it seems demeaning. Yet, I understand

what people here on this thread are saying. 

Edited by Scoper47, 10 June 2025 - 06:45 PM.

[JayinUT]

Observing and this hobby is about connection to me. It is connecting with a world that I usually don't get to participate in during the hustle and bustle of modern life. To be honest, it is why I LOVE driving to a dark site and will probably do it until I can no longer physically do it anymore. Then I'll try to get someone to take them there.

 

When I drive out, it is a symbolic journey of leaving the day to day behind, and reconnecting with our world, the universe and what I call reality.  During the drive I mark the passing of traffic as it becomes less and less; of homes and businesses' as they fade away; of the trappings of modern life.  Soon, I am out where usually during the week I am alone. I'm free for these moments now. Free from my responsibility as a husband and spouse. Free for a few hours of being a Dad and a Papa to my grandchildren. Free from the worries of work and free from all the worries of life. They all just simply fade away, Don't take me wrong, I LOVE my wife and my family more than anything. However there are times I just need to reconnect myself.

 

As I find my spot at my observing location to set up, there is a silence usually, usually a slight breeze until the sun sets.  Here I hear birds and a few other sounds of nature and I realize that I am the guest here. As much as I call the West Desert of Utah and the Unita Mountains a second home, in reality I am a guess as I set up for the evening. This is also magical as my focus becomes setting up the scope, table, sketching materials and other things I will need that night. Collimation happens with the Catseye tools and fans begin to turn, sometimes making the only sound around.

 

Then the sun begins to set, and a special times comes in, I call it "Magic Time." A second transition occurs now. Day gives way to twilight then evening. The animal sounds and bird sounds change as day ones are replaced by night ones. I realize I am also transition as it is now that a calm and a peace comes over me that is profound. I again am reminded that I am but a very, very small clog in this thing called life. I am reminded that I am really connected to the world in which I live and all the things I think are important, really are not.

 

Then night comes and finally, after astronomical twilight ends, it is time to observe. I now am in a third transition. One where I see in each object my own nothingness, my own lack of importance, my own mortality.  As I look for and find and observe objects that the light hitting my eyes took millions of years to arrive, it reminds me that I am mortal.  I realize more than ever that I have far less years ahead of me then behind me so I need to, each day, maximize my enjoyment of each day, of each relationship with others I have, family and friends.

 

During my observe there are times of marvel as I see things that words cannot describe. The beauty of what I see truly makes me speechless. There are times when I give out a  thrill or shout as I find something I have been looking for. I become absorbed in what I am doing and it makes me feel connected with the universe, and yes, as I observe the objects for that evening, and record my observation and/or sketch them, I feel a personal accomplishment and I like that.  I realize how insignificant I am in the cosmic time table. I realize that the petty things I worry about, or that frustrate me are just that, petty and I need to rise above them. I obtain perspective of what and who I am out there.

 

Finally, when the night ends, and if I am driving home or staying over, I put everything up and transition to a world of sleep eventually, with visions not of sugar plums filling my head, but visions of nebula, galaxies, planetary nebula, and finally planets filling my head. It is amazing to me that I have to force myself to stop and again force myself to sleep.  I don't get sleepy yet at the scope.

 

Eventually, the return trip comes and I leave behind all that I had out there and bring back something with me. I'm changed, even just a little as I have been reminded of my own mortality and how important it is the love and value those that truly matter in our lives. I try to be a better husband, dad, grandpa (PaPa) and person. I'm not always successful and that I why I know I need to head back out.

 

There is another connection to me that is just important. It is the times when I have someone else with me and we share in this experience. It is why I am far more into observing than outreach. I find the solitude of either being alone or with a few close friends welcoming and I find that it bonds our friendship.  The personal connection I've made with those I observe with provides a bond, that when I see them, even if it has been awhile, we reconnect because we have shared in these "magical" moments. I have one friend now that I observe with, and his friendship means the world to me. I am grateful we are friends, not only in the hobby but outside of the hobby.

 

That's it for me. Each of our journey's in this hobby will have similarities and differences, just was we each have similarities and differences being who we are. Each has to find their "magic" in this hobby and when they do, the hobby has captured them and I find, usually for life. I hope each of you have found what you get out of your journey in this hobby. This is mine.

[Otto Piechowski]

That is beautiful Jay. Your prose is almost poetry. Beautiful lyrical prose.

 

The experiences you stated, I have had many of those too over the years. There is something about that drive that I find soothing. There is something about twilight I find mystical.

 

thank you for sharing all you did.

 

Otto

[WISDOC]

  For me it is connection. During the day I see beautiful clear azure skies or massive cloud formations that set the imagination to work and wonder and even though I know the stars are up there I cannot see them.

 

  When the sun sets and I watch the first stars of the evening appear it reminds me we are all part of an indescribably large universe that only shares it's beauty with those willing to lift their gaze from this rock we call home, regardless of the many wonders right before our sunlit eyes.

 

  For those willing and/or able to take the viewing insstrument(s) of their choice outside and set to looking at what we can tease out of the observable universe I feel a connection to the universe. It doesn't matter that what I view is so far distant from me that the numbers are meaningless. All I can observe is made up of the same things I am and we all are to one extent or another. It makes me lean back from the eyepiece and simply look up and wonder on how many other worlds some being with feelings like mine are doing just as I am. Or on how many impossibly far away planets a new lifeform never seen or imagined in any intelligent mind is taking its very own first gasps of protozoan life.

 

  I keep reading about how insignificant we all are and how we do not matter and can't understand that line of thought. But of course I am less than a speck of dust in the universe. However I am part of the universe, made of the same particles of exploding stars as the rest of the universe. How can I not feel an infinite, wonderful connection to all I see.

 

  The beauty of all I can see with my eyes or my telescope that I can wheedle out of the cosmos is mind boggling. In their own way I can compare the first gaze of a nebula or star cluster's beauty with the first gaze of my newborn children. In all the cosmos I am not insignificant when I can connect my existance, my life, and my personal experiences with the universe I can see as a telescopist. { Thanks for the very astute word, Otto}  

 

 I am at peace under the night sky. Have been since I was young. I am happy viewing the wonder and beauty of the night sky, just as I am happy in the arms of my wife, or talking to my family or friends. I am even happier when I can share what I see with anyone. All are welcome to behold heavens wonders though my eyepieces. And just maybe they will feel the happiness, peace and sense of wonder and serenity I feel when I view these skies I feel so connected to.

 

  Clear skies and keep looking up. Doc

[pugliano]

I just like the sky. Always have, and have always been fascinated by it.

 

The other day, I realized many of my interests throughout my life have had one thing or another to do with the sky: astronomy, aviation, radio control sailplanes, model rockets, meteorology, bird watching, archery, and even airmail stamps.

 

Nothing profound. Just an observation.

[SouthernSkys]

I can tell why I look at planets and stars. To me, astronomy, among some other things, seems to represent “dreams about something more” (this is a title of a song written by a Russian rock musician ages ago). I built my first refractor in my early teens because I wanted “something more”, some meaning. It was not conscious though, I mean the thirst for meaning. Now, when I look through my recently bought modest refractor, I experience that sense of “something more”. Being a Christian and an artist, I also admire God the Great Artist when I see all those glowing things over there. I just marvel how He made it; His endless varieties of compositions and the sense of life in all that. The same happens when I observe moths and butterflies, another hobby of mine.

 

Observing also puts me in an anxiety-free state. There is also a desire to see more, to identify, to learn. It is very much like traveling.

Edited by SouthernSkys, 22 June 2025 - 03:14 AM.

[gnowellsct]

Jack, I would appreciate it if you know and would tell me, this closing statement found in Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus which you quoted...do you think he was applying it only to his analysis of linguistic philosophy expressed mathematically/logically/algorithmically....or do you think he was speaking of all speech in general; social, political, scientific, religious, etc.

 

Otto