Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Quite special names given to many celestial objects.

  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 Whiteduckwagglinginspace

Whiteduckwagglinginspace

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 686
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2024

Posted 08 June 2025 - 06:39 AM

Two questions: 

1.Just curious, because it stands out: Why have so many celestial objects been given occult names?

2. Please add to the list if you can think of some of your own. 


A few examples:

- We all know the dragon (Draco) and the snake (Serpent). 

- Hydra is a many-headed dragon or serpent.

- Pleiades: The seven sisters play an important role in a well known Native American tale/legend involving Devil's Tower.

- Algol: the demon star.

- 666 desdemona = a minor planet / asteroid

- IC2118: witch head nebula

- Many idols and demigods from the Greek, Roman and Egyptian era. (planets, constellations and others)
Saturn (Kronus) was married to his sister Ops (Rhea). They had children, but he ate them because he feared a prophecy that his children would overthrow him.
Jupiter is a son of Saturn. 
Medusa Nebula, we all know her special hair.

- Vampire star systems. (not a name, but still about astronomy)

- Evil Eye Galaxy




 


Edited by Whiteduckwagglinginspace, 08 June 2025 - 08:14 AM.


#2 NinePlanets

NinePlanets

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,359
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: High and Dry

Posted 08 June 2025 - 07:49 AM

Many represent Satan.

Many represent The Redeemer.

There are many traditions and lore of Good vs. Evil represented in the sky.


  • Whiteduckwagglinginspace likes this

#3 Whiteduckwagglinginspace

Whiteduckwagglinginspace

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 686
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2024

Posted 08 June 2025 - 08:03 AM

Many represent Satan.

Many represent The Redeemer. 

There are many traditions and lore of Good vs. Evil represented in the sky.

 

 

True, but haven't found the Reedemer / Good part yet. 


Edited by Whiteduckwagglinginspace, 08 June 2025 - 08:15 AM.


#4 NinePlanets

NinePlanets

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,359
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: High and Dry

Posted 08 June 2025 - 08:17 AM

Leo, Virgo, Andromeda, Orion, Ophiuchus...


  • Whiteduckwagglinginspace likes this

#5 Tony Flanders

Tony Flanders

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24,761
  • Joined: 18 May 2006
  • Loc: New Lebanon, NY and Cambridge, MA, USA

Posted 08 June 2025 - 09:11 AM

1.Just curious, because it stands out: Why have so many celestial objects been given occult names?


I'm not sure exactly what the word "occult" means. It somehow seems rather Victorian, though I'm sure it was used long before Queen Victoria was born.

Constellation names have very old roots. We still use the versions codified by Ptolemy around 150 AD, but that's already more than halfway through most constellations' lifetimes.

Both constellations and stars are almost necessarily integrated into mythology in all cultures we know. Exactly what "mythology" means, and whether you think it's synonymous with "occult" are different questions.

Historically, one culture's gods are the replacing culture's demons. Maybe. Kinda. To some extent.

Just about the only ancient constellation I can think of that doesn't have any mythological significance is Triangulum. Trust the Hellenistic Greeks to be so obsessed with mathematics that they place a geometric object on the same plane as the gods.
  • Dave Mitsky, Jon Isaacs, zleonis and 2 others like this

#6 archival

archival

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 176
  • Joined: 08 May 2025

Posted 08 June 2025 - 09:51 AM

The reasons are historical and not occult in the modern sense.

 

If you go back far enough you get the old Babylonian Empire where a lot of the northern contellations stemmed from.  There is a ten thousand year old site in Turkey where zoomorphic images on stone that tend to coincide with the animals of the Zodiac (partiral root from 'zoo-' meaning animals).  They go back to prehistory.  The earliest known constellations.

 

The Babylonians knocked the Chaldeans and Akkadians on the head, and they themselves knocked each other on the head from time to time in respect to empires.  Old Babylon inherited their "stuff" through conquest.  Which came first, astronomy or astrology, is like a chicken and egg argument, however you can't do that latter without the former (classically, you had to know the star and planet positions to do the astrology mumblings, know there's probably more mysticism than actual astrometry).

 

Whether they stole it or invented it or both (stole and advanced) all that knowledge was available

 

Well, all sorts of Empires followed when the Babylonians were knocked on the head, Assyrian, Neo Babylonian, other Persian ones, and on like that.  One of those had a leader who created the first known library about 2700 year ago.  Every time someone knocked someone on the head and took over they inherited things, including cultural and knowledge amongst the looting and pillaging, tax collecting, and tithes and tributes from vassal states.

 

Then a bunch of bandits from Macedonia started doing eastern incursions until a few centuries later one guy led a bunch of them all the way to the Indus valley or further.  He dropped dead, and had a tendency to destroy rather than collect (a bit like the modern era), but soon afterwards there was a Classical Greece related set of hegemony type stuff going on across that area.

 

You'll find that a lot of the scholarly Greeks travelled amongst these regions, it is often stated in their potted biographies, and picked up the knowledge from these newly conquered lands.

 

Remember the local population invariably outnumbers the invading occupiers by a large number so no matter how dedicated the invaders are they can't destory everything and some less obvious things get ignored.  Unlike modern times, plus the tendency in the past thousand years to destroy things based on the occupied having a false religion, and astronomical science and clerical scholars were often the same no matter what religion (cleric actually comes from old European nations tending to have only the Clerics educated, able to read and write and add up).

 

A couple of centuries after this assimilation along comes Hipparchus, for instance, who likely didn't make up his astronomy from whole cloth but inherited it from merging lots of old data from various provenances, from centuries of regional powers knocking each other the head.

 

And most of the inherited constellation names and shapes in the northern and some of the southern hemisphere come from their MYTHOLOGY, it is more mythology than occult in the modern sense.  The Classic Greeks ran Egypt and the modern Pharaoahs and people like Cleopatra (the ninth I think there were lots of Cleopatras) were actually Greeks who adopted the Egyptian ways to some extent, including marrying the siblings at times.  This should be no great surprise, as Greek Mythology and their plethora of gods is replete with naughty goings on, which is also reflected in the constellations named after god or god related figures from their mythology.

 

So, that's mostly constellations, there's no occult unless you make it occult, which is usually some current era borrowing ancient cultures' mythologies in order to spookify things.

 

Algol, though, that's a star.

 

Well a few centuries or so after Hipparchus, when the Romans had in their turn knocked the Greeks on the head and took Egypt to be their wheat basket, Ptolemy turned up and amongst other things he used were Hipparchus's astronomy, and that was laid down in much writing (there were a lot of Ptolemys by the way, some Pharoahs, over time).

 

A few hundred years after that a new religion was started in the Arabian Peninsula, in a short time secular politics and this new religion became inexorably intertwined and they decided to go out and share their believes.  Such sharing is usuall terms conquest.

 

The Roman Empire effectively split into two, the western one effectively having been dead by that time, and the eastern one surviving around another thousand years before being knocked on the head by the Arabs.  Initially the Arabs left locals to their own thing and did not demand conversion and even made special allowance for the indigenous populations to still worship in their own religions.  The same can't be said for the European religion.  Everyone should have expected the eventual Spanish Inquisition.  The Arabs too became more rigid over religion over the centuries, whether the Europeans caused or accelarated that by attacking them, I don't know enough history to say.  They all found one little city very holy, ironically this little city was originally declared holy by a small group of local peoples who hadn't been free in a very long time, but as their religions came from the same religion as that one it was a triply holy city and everyone wanted to own it, up to this very day.

 

The western end had a unifying religion too, under one leadership for at least another thousand years, and they tended to inherit the Roman-Greek writings as their religion had started whilst the Roman Empire was still young and one polity, and the Romans tended to follow the Classical Greek culture for such things.  Hence the constellations being adopted by the West and Northwest of Europe, amongst others.

 

Now the Arabs in the end went east and west to extremes of landmasses, in order to share their religion or conquer and accrue power and wealth, reader decides.  The former is often an excuse for the latter, and here religion means "way of thought" and does not necessarily have to have a set of gods involved, but can make a very pious and justified excuse for walking over a border, usually in order to "save" the non-believers.

 

Still, in the end, and including the slow assimilation of the Byzantine Empire (which is what the Eastern Roman Empire had become) until totally subsuming it half a thousand years or so ago they inherited a lot of Greek learning going back 2000 years, and this learning had been added to by the Greeks before stagnation and that went back about a thousand years or so in recorded history, and probably farther before.

 

So the Arabs translated the Greek classics found in their subsumed territories and started advancing from that in the terms of their own mathematics and astronomy.  Mathematics, as opposed to the basic arithmetic needed for mercantile trade and business, and astronomy and architecture were intimately reliant on each other for development in those days, and before, and even today although mathematics has a larger domain.

 

The Arabs weren't allowed to anthropomorphise idolatry, hence the decorations in their religious buildings are purely geometric with know representations of people like in Ancient Rome and Classical Greece and the then Europe.

 

They went around assimilating and advancing knowledge.  Ancient knowledge and for astronomy more importantly ancient data were inherited.  Whether they kept the constellation names I'm never sure, I doubt it.

 

For the noteworthy point is that most of our current long standing starnames come from their language.

 

For example Algol, Alkaid, Alkalurops, Albireo, Algedi, Althis, Althat and Altheother.  Many other star names also started with Al, which effectively means 'the', but know drop the preceding 'the', whilst others still have it in the middle of the name, as in Betelguese and the semilegendary Zubenelgenubi, amongst others - 'el' is another transliteration of 'al' from the Arab to Roman alphabet.  This includes mistransliteration as well, Betelguese would be Yetelguese if not for that as it was 'Ya' in Arabic but mistransliterated to 'Ba' via misreading.  Arabic letters are somewhat subtle in their differences to Western European eyes.

 

Part of the Arab western move got to the Atlantic Coast of North Africa.  Fortunately the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula could be seen on a clear day, so the Arabs invaded that.  This led to some cultural exchange, especially when the Europeans there, under their religion, threw out the Arabs their, under their religion.

 

This again left many learned texts.  This in combination with trade from places like the Italian Peninsula, the seat of the old Roman Empire, with the Eastern Mediterranean, eventually led to Arab writing based on the Classical Greek writings being assimilated in Western Europe.  Unfortunately the religion there was somewhat dogmatically into an early Greek "philospher", the guy who taught the guy who invaded all the land where all those ancient middle east and eastern empires had been that had inherited, assimilated and synthesised together all the knowledge (usually through knocking each others empire on the head over time) going back to prehistory.  Thus a Pole decided it to not publish his learnings and advances therefrom about the motions of planets he got from Greek learning and thinking on his own (although few correctly state that he never believed in it physically but more as a mechanism that worked for making the numbers not need fudging) until after he'd died, especially as he was an official in the religion who held this ancient philosphers teachings paramount amongst all others.  Possibly because the Greeks evangelicised that religion more enthusiastically than most in the early days of that religion.

 

And after that had built up steam there came this thing in mostly Western and Central Europe called the Rennaisance, which read new translations of these Arab works translated from the old Greek, which was translated from the old Persian (more properly Assyrian) and Babylonian, which itself would have come from ancient translations of Chaldean and Akkadian work, admittedly all being added to along the way.  This was good, as that ancient philosopher talked an exceptional amount of rot, and although ostensibly invented logic it must be remembered that logic depends on the things the prepositions are based upon (humans have cells, vegetables have cells, humans are therefor turnips).  Granted he experimented a bit but it is not what you would call the scientific method.  This led to so called "Natural Philosophy" and a lot of the demonstrably true knowledge was mathematical, especially geometric, so astronomy had a bit of a head start, helped by the recent invention of sticking two bits of glass at the end of a tube.

 

And as that was the source, and the constellations had been more or less kept since the Greeks due to the Western Religion but the Greek updates in science from some thinkers besides Aristotle were new information, especially again in astronomy, and the Arab works used Arab names for the starnames, which were inherited with few non Arabic starnames up until this century being used, especially in the northern constellations, most of the latter being inherited from the Classical Greeks who loved their naughty mythologies, based on the pervy goings on of their gods mostly, and transferred them to the sky patterns, however some of these sky patterns were long known in that area of the world prior to themselves, and retained their naming with just the Greek interpretation placed over them instead of what the original ones were.  Examples include the Zodiac constellations and the Great Bear.

 

So Draco and the 48 mostly northern constellation comes from an old Greek list put down from Ptolemy, a Roman citizen of Greek descent but from Greek civilisation Egypt, taken from a list by Eudoxus, a Greek who put it it down half a thousand years earlier, and they stuck.  Similarly Hydra came from the same list.  Classical and Ancient Greek mythologies go along with their naming.  These were in many ways inherited constellations from earlier Tigris-Euphrates Valleys civilisations via ciruitous routes and roots mostly because of conquest.

 

Meanwhile the alpha star in each of these constellations come from Arabic names because they added names to stars (formerly stars would have been named things like "first amongst" or "brightest" or alpha etc, or of "the first magnitude" meaning the most important but becoming to mean brightness nowadays.  Alphard, or alpha Hydrae, means "The Individual" (there's that 'the' again), and indeed it often shines lonely between the horizon and below and off the end of Leo in Spring, I actually find it a pleasant naked eye pleasure when its season comes around again, but in those terms Fomalhaut is the favourite because it is lower and often behind buildings at these latitudes - not the 'the' again in the middle of that name).  Meanwhile the alpha star in Draco, alpha Draconis, is not as bright seeming as Eltanin in the head of Draco, and asterism sometimes called 'The Lozenge', but is from the Arabic for large snake.

 

Or in other words, constellation and star names have sod all to do with the occult.

 

The reasons are a consequence of history with the constellation names set in the roots of a past mythological layer placed often atop star patterns inherited from ancient Mesopotamian cultures (independed constellation patterns, if they exist at all, often bear no relation to the images in the modern constellations, and indeed can be made up of stars form more than one modern constellation and have more constellations are the groupings are broken up more at times - eg constellations harping all the way back to the original Indus or Yangtze Valleys' civilisations.  Whilst star names were added by the Arabs who had a religious edict against using human images at times and against the idolatry of other gods but their own single god and tended to use animal names instead, often domestic.  The little asterism "The Kids" is the little group of stars in a triangle next to Capella (goat, little female goat, which is from the Latin for once) with epsilon Aurigae being called Almaaz, from the Arabic for "the Billy Goat", derived from a translation of the work of Ulugh Beg.  Although the other two are named "the kid" I and II from the Latin, the Arabs took the hint for it fitted to their naming lore.  This isn't always consistently logical, for instance beta Aurigae is called the 'left shoulder of the rein holder' via Arabic, Menkalinen, as from Romano-Greek tradition the constellation of Auriga is the "Charioteer".

 

No occult was used in the naming of these objects, they come from myth originally and went on form that.

 

In Chinese Empire names for constellations and stars you get things like (not direct quote) the three royal carriages for asterisms or constellations with star names like the first courtier and the second courtier etc.


Edited by archival, 08 June 2025 - 09:58 AM.

  • Barlowbill, dnrmilspec, triplemon and 1 other like this

#7 archival

archival

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 176
  • Joined: 08 May 2025

Posted 08 June 2025 - 10:03 AM

True, but haven't found the Reedemer / Good part yet. 

There's no religion allowed in these forums if you are trying to overlay a christian ethos to this topic.  Religion is irrelevant to constellations despite having overlaid the naming lores at times, but culture dependent.  We tend to have an Ancient and Classic Greek inherited traditional overlaid with Arabic dissemination and extensions when it comes to the names but that doesn't mean they are occult or heathen or pagan in the secular context (as in not being declared heresy due to not fitting a religious doctrine).

Redeemer / Good part is nothing to do with it.  Granted it is strange that the old Catholic Church so happily inherited much of this to them pagan Classical Greek mytholdogy and so much of Aristotle's philosphy, but they had a fudge for that (those peoples were unfortunate enough to have lived before their particular prophet descended but evidently were of the right mindset because we say so).

The names are not evil or occult, their historical through happenstance of knowledge descent routes and thus consequential with no meaning in any viewpoint based dialogue imposed upon them by personal belief.

They just are.

 

If you don't like them try the old asterism names (I dislike the modern era made up names for small telescopic asterisms or made up modern names for nebulae which are too current to be assured a lasting legacy like traditional names have proven to have).

 

For example, to me the head of Leo is called the Sickle but to me it is a backwards ? .  But it is the Sickle, not some random made up modern name.

 

I can also see the sickle idea though as when I was a young 'un I had in my time to take a sickle to the long grass in the long back yard as part of my chores.  We didn't have a scythe which probably explains why my feet are still attached.


  • David Knisely and Marcus1 like this

#8 archival

archival

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 176
  • Joined: 08 May 2025

Posted 08 June 2025 - 10:17 AM

I'm not sure exactly what the word "occult" means. It somehow seems rather Victorian, though I'm sure it was used long before Queen Victoria was born.

Constellation names have very old roots. We still use the versions codified by Ptolemy around 150 AD, but that's already more than halfway through most constellations' lifetimes.

Both constellations and stars are almost necessarily integrated into mythology in all cultures we know. Exactly what "mythology" means, and whether you think it's synonymous with "occult" are different questions.

Historically, one culture's gods are the replacing culture's demons. Maybe. Kinda. To some extent.

Just about the only ancient constellation I can think of that doesn't have any mythological significance is Triangulum. Trust the Hellenistic Greeks to be so obsessed with mathematics that they place a geometric object on the same plane as the gods.

Because of how history came down to us in the so called Western World the Classical or Helenistic Greeks are lauded as the seat of science, especially mathematics and astronomy.  In effect, although they added to it and sythesised bits, they pinched most of it from Persia after conquests, and that itself, despite local and later advances, at core had been pinched but also added to, and so on and so forth.

 

More than thanking the Helenistic Greeks as discoverers, as opposed to those that passed things on, we could alternatively thank the Arabs because they passed it on, and added to, a great deal of what Helenistic Greeks said, which itself was a passing on situation, although with additions.

 

If you evern listen to the BBC radio "In Our Times" science themed programmes you will hear the presenter at times state things like "it all goes back to the Greeks as usual".  Invariably it doesn't, either it all goes back to the Babylonians, who pinched it off (but also added to it) the Chaldeans and Akkadians, and they didn't invent it all as it came from prehistory (Gopekli Tepe which hails back as far as the recovery from the Younger Dryas cold event and the birth of agriculture is much older than those civilisations), and got to us via the Arabs.  As far as modern science is concerned they mostly talked rot, and the mathematics comes from them sometimes but has older roots.  Then again, the presenter does tend to have a classicist outlook in his likes, despite not having studied it at Oxford, but when you hear 'Oxford' you think the Classics, when you hear Cambridge you think Science "even if you think Masschussets when you hear Cambridge).
 


  • Marcus1 likes this

#9 ChristianG

ChristianG

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,818
  • Joined: 18 Oct 2012
  • Loc: Ottawa, Canada

Posted 08 June 2025 - 10:40 AM

"666 desdemona = a minor planet / asteroid"

 

666 is the integer between 665 and 667, and Desdemona is a female character in the Shakespeare play Othello. Nothing to do with the new testament nor the word "demon."

 

" IC2118: witch head nebula"

 

Look up "pareidolia".

 

Cheers!

 

--Christian

 

 






 


  • Whiteduckwagglinginspace likes this

#10 mogur

mogur

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,417
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2011
  • Loc: Pueblo, CO

Posted 08 June 2025 - 11:44 AM

"666 desdemona = a minor planet / asteroid"

 

666 is the integer between 665 and 667, and Desdemona is a female character in the Shakespeare play Othello. Nothing to do with the new testament nor the word "demon."

 

" IC2118: witch head nebula"

 

Look up "pareidolia".

 

Cheers!

 

--Christian

 

 





 

Now if it were called 666 Wormwood I'd have cause to be concerned. lol.gif


  • Dave Mitsky, NinePlanets and Whiteduckwagglinginspace like this

#11 Tony Flanders

Tony Flanders

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24,761
  • Joined: 18 May 2006
  • Loc: New Lebanon, NY and Cambridge, MA, USA

Posted 08 June 2025 - 11:47 AM

Because of how history came down to us in the so called Western World the Classical or Helenistic Greeks are lauded as the seat of science, especially mathematics and astronomy.  In effect, although they added to it and sythesised bits, they pinched most of it from Persia after conquests, and that itself, despite local and later advances, at core had been pinched but also added to, and so on and so forth.


No, I wouldn't phrase it that way. A magnificent cultural exchange took place after Alexander's conquests, and both the Greek and Persian civilizations were transformed by it. Actually, the cultural exchange was happening long before Alexander, and involved many civilizations besides those two. But it reached critical point, a new level and depth, in the Hellenistic civilization. Which was not so much Greek as cosmopolitan. Subsequent Persian empires regarded themselves as the true inheritors of Hellenistic civilization.
 
The absolutely essential thing that the Greeks brought to the mix was rigorous mathematics, and the idea that it could be used to model the universe.
 

More than thanking the Helenistic Greeks as discoverers, as opposed to those that passed things on, we could alternatively thank the Arabs because they passed it on, and added to, a great deal of what Helenistic Greeks said, which itself was a passing on situation, although with additions.

I think of the Greeks as the Great Synthesizers. They were scornful of non-Greek civilizations, but were smart enough to borrow from them shamelessly. Right from the get-go, long before Homer.
 
As for the contributions of the Islamic world, they were certainly essential in terms of continuity. Western Europe re-learned the Greek classics from Arabic translations. More to the point, the Islamic world developed new mathematical techniques -- or synthesized them from Greek and Indian elements -- that proved essential to the development of modern science. Yet oddly no classical Islamic astronomer ever made the leap to the heliocentric model.

Ultimately, it all goes back to Sumeria, the Cradle of Civilization. Which, obviously, didn't spring fully clothed from Zeus's head.


  • billywjackson, jhwilmes and Whiteduckwagglinginspace like this

#12 Barlowbill

Barlowbill

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,654
  • Joined: 05 Apr 2018
  • Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma

Posted 08 June 2025 - 12:03 PM

I agree with archival....people are turnips.



#13 WillR

WillR

    Skylab

  • ****-
  • Posts: 4,148
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2021
  • Loc: Stroudsburg, PA

Posted 08 June 2025 - 12:40 PM

Two questions: 

1.Just curious, because it stands out: Why have so many celestial objects been given occult names?

2. Please add to the list if you can think of some of your own. 


A few examples:

- We all know the dragon (Draco) and the snake (Serpent). 

- Hydra is a many-headed dragon or serpent.

- Pleiades: The seven sisters play an important role in a well known Native American tale/legend involving Devil's Tower.

- Algol: the demon star.

- 666 desdemona = a minor planet / asteroid

- IC2118: witch head nebula

- Many idols and demigods from the Greek, Roman and Egyptian era. (planets, constellations and others)
Saturn (Kronus) was married to his sister Ops (Rhea). They had children, but he ate them because he feared a prophecy that his children would overthrow him.
Jupiter is a son of Saturn. 
Medusa Nebula, we all know her special hair.

- Vampire star systems. (not a name, but still about astronomy)

- Evil Eye Galaxy
 

You are reaching here. Nothing occult about Draco, Serpens, Hydra, etc. The older constellation names all predate the Christian era. There are plenty of heroes in the sky. It’s mostly Greek gods and goddesses, myths, animals, and with the more recent southern constellations in the Southern hemisphere, scientific tools.

 

Other than the constellations, which predate telescopes, you named a handful, hardly “so many”. 


  • David Knisely and Whiteduckwagglinginspace like this

#14 Dave Mitsky

Dave Mitsky

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 124,247
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2002
  • Loc: PA, USA, North America, Planet Earth

Posted 08 June 2025 - 12:54 PM

Adding to the confusion (?) is the fact that a number of deep sky objects and asterisms have multiple common names.


  • Whiteduckwagglinginspace likes this

#15 Dave Mitsky

Dave Mitsky

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 124,247
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2002
  • Loc: PA, USA, North America, Planet Earth

Posted 08 June 2025 - 01:15 PM

For example, to me the head of Leo is called the Sickle but to me it is a backwards ? .  But it is the Sickle, not some random made up modern name.

 

I can also see the sickle idea though as when I was a young 'un I had in my time to take a sickle to the long grass in the long back yard as part of my chores.  We didn't have a scythe which probably explains why my feet are still attached.

Sickles used to be standard farm equipment, used in reaping. The sickle may be most recognizable in flags and symbology of the hammer and sickle, which were the tools that represented the Soviet Union for many years. Nowadays it’s easier to point out the “backward question mark” to stargazers when targeting the Sickle.

 

https://earthsky.org...pattern-in-leo/


  • Whiteduckwagglinginspace likes this

#16 billywjackson

billywjackson

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2021
  • Loc: Bitterroot Valley, MT USA

Posted 08 June 2025 - 01:32 PM

I just started reading "Coming of Age In the Milky Way", by Timothy Ferris. From the preface, "This book purports to tell the story of how, through the workings of science, our species has arrived a its current estimation of the dimensions ofcaomic space and time." The first few chapters seem
to provide a nice synopsis of how early astronomical knowledge was passed down. I know many of you have already read it, but I would highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't.

Clear Skies!
  • Whiteduckwagglinginspace likes this

#17 Whiteduckwagglinginspace

Whiteduckwagglinginspace

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 686
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2024

Posted 08 June 2025 - 01:35 PM

The reasons are historical and not occult in the modern sense.

 

If you go back far enough you get the old Babylonian Empire where a lot of the northern contellations stemmed from.  There is a ten thousand year old site in Turkey where zoomorphic images on stone that tend to coincide with the animals of the Zodiac (partiral root from 'zoo-' meaning animals).  They go back to prehistory.  The earliest known constellations.

 

The Babylonians knocked the Chaldeans and Akkadians on the head, and they themselves knocked each other on the head from time to time in respect to empires.  Old Babylon inherited their "stuff" through conquest.  Which came first, astronomy or astrology, is like a chicken and egg argument, however you can't do that latter without the former (classically, you had to know the star and planet positions to do the astrology mumblings, know there's probably more mysticism than actual astrometry).

 

Whether they stole it or invented it or both (stole and advanced) all that knowledge was available

 

Well, all sorts of Empires followed when the Babylonians were knocked on the head, Assyrian, Neo Babylonian, other Persian ones, and on like that.  One of those had a leader who created the first known library about 2700 year ago.  Every time someone knocked someone on the head and took over they inherited things, including cultural and knowledge amongst the looting and pillaging, tax collecting, and tithes and tributes from vassal states.

 

Then a bunch of bandits from Macedonia started doing eastern incursions until a few centuries later one guy led a bunch of them all the way to the Indus valley or further.  He dropped dead, and had a tendency to destroy rather than collect (a bit like the modern era), but soon afterwards there was a Classical Greece related set of hegemony type stuff going on across that area.

 

You'll find that a lot of the scholarly Greeks travelled amongst these regions, it is often stated in their potted biographies, and picked up the knowledge from these newly conquered lands.

 

Remember the local population invariably outnumbers the invading occupiers by a large number so no matter how dedicated the invaders are they can't destory everything and some less obvious things get ignored.  Unlike modern times, plus the tendency in the past thousand years to destroy things based on the occupied having a false religion, and astronomical science and clerical scholars were often the same no matter what religion (cleric actually comes from old European nations tending to have only the Clerics educated, able to read and write and add up).

 

A couple of centuries after this assimilation along comes Hipparchus, for instance, who likely didn't make up his astronomy from whole cloth but inherited it from merging lots of old data from various provenances, from centuries of regional powers knocking each other the head.

 

And most of the inherited constellation names and shapes in the northern and some of the southern hemisphere come from their MYTHOLOGY, it is more mythology than occult in the modern sense.  The Classic Greeks ran Egypt and the modern Pharaoahs and people like Cleopatra (the ninth I think there were lots of Cleopatras) were actually Greeks who adopted the Egyptian ways to some extent, including marrying the siblings at times.  This should be no great surprise, as Greek Mythology and their plethora of gods is replete with naughty goings on, which is also reflected in the constellations named after god or god related figures from their mythology.

 

So, that's mostly constellations, there's no occult unless you make it occult, which is usually some current era borrowing ancient cultures' mythologies in order to spookify things.

 

Algol, though, that's a star.

 

Well a few centuries or so after Hipparchus, when the Romans had in their turn knocked the Greeks on the head and took Egypt to be their wheat basket, Ptolemy turned up and amongst other things he used were Hipparchus's astronomy, and that was laid down in much writing (there were a lot of Ptolemys by the way, some Pharoahs, over time).

 

A few hundred years after that a new religion was started in the Arabian Peninsula, in a short time secular politics and this new religion became inexorably intertwined and they decided to go out and share their believes.  Such sharing is usuall terms conquest.

 

The Roman Empire effectively split into two, the western one effectively having been dead by that time, and the eastern one surviving around another thousand years before being knocked on the head by the Arabs.  Initially the Arabs left locals to their own thing and did not demand conversion and even made special allowance for the indigenous populations to still worship in their own religions.  The same can't be said for the European religion.  Everyone should have expected the eventual Spanish Inquisition.  The Arabs too became more rigid over religion over the centuries, whether the Europeans caused or accelarated that by attacking them, I don't know enough history to say.  They all found one little city very holy, ironically this little city was originally declared holy by a small group of local peoples who hadn't been free in a very long time, but as their religions came from the same religion as that one it was a triply holy city and everyone wanted to own it, up to this very day.

 

The western end had a unifying religion too, under one leadership for at least another thousand years, and they tended to inherit the Roman-Greek writings as their religion had started whilst the Roman Empire was still young and one polity, and the Romans tended to follow the Classical Greek culture for such things.  Hence the constellations being adopted by the West and Northwest of Europe, amongst others.

 

Now the Arabs in the end went east and west to extremes of landmasses, in order to share their religion or conquer and accrue power and wealth, reader decides.  The former is often an excuse for the latter, and here religion means "way of thought" and does not necessarily have to have a set of gods involved, but can make a very pious and justified excuse for walking over a border, usually in order to "save" the non-believers.

 

Still, in the end, and including the slow assimilation of the Byzantine Empire (which is what the Eastern Roman Empire had become) until totally subsuming it half a thousand years or so ago they inherited a lot of Greek learning going back 2000 years, and this learning had been added to by the Greeks before stagnation and that went back about a thousand years or so in recorded history, and probably farther before.

 

So the Arabs translated the Greek classics found in their subsumed territories and started advancing from that in the terms of their own mathematics and astronomy.  Mathematics, as opposed to the basic arithmetic needed for mercantile trade and business, and astronomy and architecture were intimately reliant on each other for development in those days, and before, and even today although mathematics has a larger domain.

 

The Arabs weren't allowed to anthropomorphise idolatry, hence the decorations in their religious buildings are purely geometric with know representations of people like in Ancient Rome and Classical Greece and the then Europe.

 

They went around assimilating and advancing knowledge.  Ancient knowledge and for astronomy more importantly ancient data were inherited.  Whether they kept the constellation names I'm never sure, I doubt it.

 

For the noteworthy point is that most of our current long standing starnames come from their language.

 

For example Algol, Alkaid, Alkalurops, Albireo, Algedi, Althis, Althat and Altheother.  Many other star names also started with Al, which effectively means 'the', but know drop the preceding 'the', whilst others still have it in the middle of the name, as in Betelguese and the semilegendary Zubenelgenubi, amongst others - 'el' is another transliteration of 'al' from the Arab to Roman alphabet.  This includes mistransliteration as well, Betelguese would be Yetelguese if not for that as it was 'Ya' in Arabic but mistransliterated to 'Ba' via misreading.  Arabic letters are somewhat subtle in their differences to Western European eyes.

 

Part of the Arab western move got to the Atlantic Coast of North Africa.  Fortunately the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula could be seen on a clear day, so the Arabs invaded that.  This led to some cultural exchange, especially when the Europeans there, under their religion, threw out the Arabs their, under their religion.

 

This again left many learned texts.  This in combination with trade from places like the Italian Peninsula, the seat of the old Roman Empire, with the Eastern Mediterranean, eventually led to Arab writing based on the Classical Greek writings being assimilated in Western Europe.  Unfortunately the religion there was somewhat dogmatically into an early Greek "philospher", the guy who taught the guy who invaded all the land where all those ancient middle east and eastern empires had been that had inherited, assimilated and synthesised together all the knowledge (usually through knocking each others empire on the head over time) going back to prehistory.  Thus a Pole decided it to not publish his learnings and advances therefrom about the motions of planets he got from Greek learning and thinking on his own (although few correctly state that he never believed in it physically but more as a mechanism that worked for making the numbers not need fudging) until after he'd died, especially as he was an official in the religion who held this ancient philosphers teachings paramount amongst all others.  Possibly because the Greeks evangelicised that religion more enthusiastically than most in the early days of that religion.

 

And after that had built up steam there came this thing in mostly Western and Central Europe called the Rennaisance, which read new translations of these Arab works translated from the old Greek, which was translated from the old Persian (more properly Assyrian) and Babylonian, which itself would have come from ancient translations of Chaldean and Akkadian work, admittedly all being added to along the way.  This was good, as that ancient philosopher talked an exceptional amount of rot, and although ostensibly invented logic it must be remembered that logic depends on the things the prepositions are based upon (humans have cells, vegetables have cells, humans are therefor turnips).  Granted he experimented a bit but it is not what you would call the scientific method.  This led to so called "Natural Philosophy" and a lot of the demonstrably true knowledge was mathematical, especially geometric, so astronomy had a bit of a head start, helped by the recent invention of sticking two bits of glass at the end of a tube.

 

And as that was the source, and the constellations had been more or less kept since the Greeks due to the Western Religion but the Greek updates in science from some thinkers besides Aristotle were new information, especially again in astronomy, and the Arab works used Arab names for the starnames, which were inherited with few non Arabic starnames up until this century being used, especially in the northern constellations, most of the latter being inherited from the Classical Greeks who loved their naughty mythologies, based on the pervy goings on of their gods mostly, and transferred them to the sky patterns, however some of these sky patterns were long known in that area of the world prior to themselves, and retained their naming with just the Greek interpretation placed over them instead of what the original ones were.  Examples include the Zodiac constellations and the Great Bear.

 

So Draco and the 48 mostly northern constellation comes from an old Greek list put down from Ptolemy, a Roman citizen of Greek descent but from Greek civilisation Egypt, taken from a list by Eudoxus, a Greek who put it it down half a thousand years earlier, and they stuck.  Similarly Hydra came from the same list.  Classical and Ancient Greek mythologies go along with their naming.  These were in many ways inherited constellations from earlier Tigris-Euphrates Valleys civilisations via ciruitous routes and roots mostly because of conquest.

 

Meanwhile the alpha star in each of these constellations come from Arabic names because they added names to stars (formerly stars would have been named things like "first amongst" or "brightest" or alpha etc, or of "the first magnitude" meaning the most important but becoming to mean brightness nowadays.  Alphard, or alpha Hydrae, means "The Individual" (there's that 'the' again), and indeed it often shines lonely between the horizon and below and off the end of Leo in Spring, I actually find it a pleasant naked eye pleasure when its season comes around again, but in those terms Fomalhaut is the favourite because it is lower and often behind buildings at these latitudes - not the 'the' again in the middle of that name).  Meanwhile the alpha star in Draco, alpha Draconis, is not as bright seeming as Eltanin in the head of Draco, and asterism sometimes called 'The Lozenge', but is from the Arabic for large snake.

 

Or in other words, constellation and star names have sod all to do with the occult.

 

The reasons are a consequence of history with the constellation names set in the roots of a past mythological layer placed often atop star patterns inherited from ancient Mesopotamian cultures (independed constellation patterns, if they exist at all, often bear no relation to the images in the modern constellations, and indeed can be made up of stars form more than one modern constellation and have more constellations are the groupings are broken up more at times - eg constellations harping all the way back to the original Indus or Yangtze Valleys' civilisations.  Whilst star names were added by the Arabs who had a religious edict against using human images at times and against the idolatry of other gods but their own single god and tended to use animal names instead, often domestic.  The little asterism "The Kids" is the little group of stars in a triangle next to Capella (goat, little female goat, which is from the Latin for once) with epsilon Aurigae being called Almaaz, from the Arabic for "the Billy Goat", derived from a translation of the work of Ulugh Beg.  Although the other two are named "the kid" I and II from the Latin, the Arabs took the hint for it fitted to their naming lore.  This isn't always consistently logical, for instance beta Aurigae is called the 'left shoulder of the rein holder' via Arabic, Menkalinen, as from Romano-Greek tradition the constellation of Auriga is the "Charioteer".

 

No occult was used in the naming of these objects, they come from myth originally and went on form that.

 

In Chinese Empire names for constellations and stars you get things like (not direct quote) the three royal carriages for asterisms or constellations with star names like the first courtier and the second courtier etc.

Your nickname Archival relates to an archive.

Did you put up this whole text yourself, or did you ask chat-gpt (AI)?



#18 Whiteduckwagglinginspace

Whiteduckwagglinginspace

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 686
  • Joined: 02 Nov 2024

Posted 08 June 2025 - 01:41 PM

There's no religion allowed in these forums if you are trying to overlay a christian ethos to this topic.  

No, thats not my intention at all. But it seems you have some problems with christianity. Please keep that to yourself. 


Edited by Whiteduckwagglinginspace, 08 June 2025 - 01:55 PM.

  • NinePlanets likes this

#19 pretyro

pretyro

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 593
  • Joined: 19 Jan 2021

Posted 08 June 2025 - 11:06 PM

Two questions: 

1.Just curious, because it stands out: Why have so many celestial objects been given occult names?

2. Please add to the list if you can think of some of your own. 


A few examples:

- We all know the dragon (Draco) and the snake (Serpent). 

- Hydra is a many-headed dragon or serpent.

- Pleiades: The seven sisters play an important role in a well known Native American tale/legend involving Devil's Tower.

- Algol: the demon star.

- 666 desdemona = a minor planet / asteroid

- IC2118: witch head nebula

- Many idols and demigods from the Greek, Roman and Egyptian era. (planets, constellations and others)
Saturn (Kronus) was married to his sister Ops (Rhea). They had children, but he ate them because he feared a prophecy that his children would overthrow him.
Jupiter is a son of Saturn. 
Medusa Nebula, we all know her special hair.

- Vampire star systems. (not a name, but still about astronomy)

- Evil Eye Galaxy




 

     People interpreted the images in the sky and wrote a story; sometimes conflicting stories.  The examples you provided happen to have been extended into Western culture and English.  Astronomy seen through the lens of other cultures (Chinese, Hawaiian, etc) yields different stories.

 

     Moreover, yarns spun and tales told in Western literature from the ancient Greeks through the likes of Beowulf and Brothers Grimm to Steven King are not all sunshine and buttercups.  For that matter, I’ve read non-secular texts (which you may be also familiar with) that relate horrific events of fratricide, infanticide and illicit relationships.  That is, astronomy is not the sole standard bearer for non-PG13 story-lines.

 

     I bet years hence, wizened astronomers, looking back to our quaint times circa 2nd millennium for words to apply to fresh observations, will then denote them with names like Kardashian and Quidditch.  It would be fascinating to hear the story-lines they create.

 

     Honestly, it would be interesting to see a new and different take on the stars, their imagery and story complete with new naming conventions.  It might not achieve WGSN approval, but it could still be a good read.
 


  • David Knisely and Whiteduckwagglinginspace like this

#20 mogur

mogur

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4,417
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2011
  • Loc: Pueblo, CO

Posted 09 June 2025 - 09:50 PM

I myself never liked the names of the constellations. They smack of Astrology! We have enough trouble with people thinking that it's the same as Astronomy! Can't anyone think of more scientific nomenclature? I'd be happy if they were just numbered according to RA & Dec.



#21 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 29,874
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 10 June 2025 - 12:18 PM

Anthropologists have estimated that humans have worshiped at least 18,000 gods, goddesses, and other entities throughout their history.

 

All of these deities had some story that accompanied the belief it their existence. It is understandable that many of the things we see in the sky are named after them.

 

Algol is a good example, derives from Arabic raʾs alghul, which translates into the head of the ghoul.

 

We know that all of these deities and supernatural beings are fiction, but with no internet, the people of the deep past made up stories to account for things, and often these were things they did not understand or that they worshipped or feared. Many of these things simply came to be superimposed on the sky, which is something they also did not understand, and I believe that in the deep past, the stars in the sky were a miracle themselves. Imagine what the sky must have looked like 2000 years ago! Absent the light pollution and the man made particulates that saturate our atmosphere today, and living much of their night time existence in a dark adapted state, the night sky must have seemed ablaze with light, color, and sculpture. It would seem to be natural for them to give names to the things that they saw that made them memorable, so that the stories and legends could be passed along to the future. If Algol was named Yusuf, it would seem unremarkable for such a prominent point of light in the celestial sphere. The head of the ghoul makes it memorable.



#22 jhwilmes

jhwilmes

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 125
  • Joined: 12 Apr 2022

Posted 10 June 2025 - 02:04 PM

I myself never liked the names of the constellations. They smack of Astrology! We have enough trouble with people thinking that it's the same as Astronomy! Can't anyone think of more scientific nomenclature? I'd be happy if they were just numbered according to RA & Dec.

There are some that are more "scientific" - mostly asterisms. The "big dipper", the "summer triangle", a few others - but the historical (and by extension, mythical) connection is part of what makes the constellations interesting. The human mind remembers stories better than other kinds of facts; most people probably wouldn't know their way around the night sky without constellations, which is why they remain relevant. 


  • David Knisely and WillR like this

#23 izar187

izar187

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,560
  • Joined: 02 Sep 2006
  • Loc: 43N

Posted 10 June 2025 - 02:58 PM

"Why have so many celestial objects been given occult names?"

___________________

 

You mean like Earth, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Mars... ?  : )

The overwhelming majority of everything on Earth is named for something from some past or present culture.

 

 

 

"I'd be happy if they were just numbered according to RA & Dec."

___________________

 

With the exception of wandering targets, everything already has those coordinates.

I've often just telescoped to something that way after somebody posts about it, without even bothering with what constellation it's in.

Just by going to the correct page in an atlas, then manually pointing a scope there, or as close as I could guesstimate.  : )

 

 

 

 


  • David Knisely likes this

#24 NinePlanets

NinePlanets

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,359
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: High and Dry

Posted 10 June 2025 - 04:36 PM

I have my own names for several constellations and asterisms. I tend to call them how I see them with my own eyes. But the obvious ones that actually look like what they are named for (for instance, Cygnus, Orion, Scorpius) keep their official names.

 

There are other constellations that, in my eyes, look like what they are named for, but I see them differently than how they are often illustrated. Aquila, as an example. Many illustrate Altair as the head of the eagle, while I see Altair as the center feather of the splayed-out tail feathers, with Tarazed and Alshain demarking the width of the tail. Deneb Okab represents the heart or neck of the bird, and the wings are obvious spread east and west. It is flying south, just ahead of Cygnus.

 

FWIW.

No one says you can't have your own fun with it all.

Capricornus is a bikini bottom. Aquarius is a pair of caltrops, etc...


Edited by NinePlanets, 10 June 2025 - 04:39 PM.


#25 WillR

WillR

    Skylab

  • ****-
  • Posts: 4,148
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2021
  • Loc: Stroudsburg, PA

Posted 10 June 2025 - 05:26 PM

I myself never liked the names of the constellations. They smack of Astrology! We have enough trouble with people thinking that it's the same as Astronomy! Can't anyone think of more scientific nomenclature? I'd be happy if they were just numbered according to RA & Dec.

Well that would be boring. Anyway you are putting the cart before the horse. They smack of astrology to you because astrology uses the names of the constellations. If they were numbered, astrology would use the numbers.

 

But the myths and names of the constellations predate astrology. That’s like saying the Druid winter solstice celebration smacks of Christmas. It’s the other way around, actually.


  • David Knisely likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics