39 replies to this topic

[mogur]

No reason they can't be re-named right now. Does anyone really see an archer when they look at Sagittarius, or do you see a teapot?

[NinePlanets]

I see both. The teapot's handle is the right shoulder and elbow of the archer drawing back the bowstring. The spout is his left arm holding the bow. But yeah, I call it the Teapot.

[WillR]

No reason they can't be re-named right now. Does anyone really see an archer when they look at Sagittarius, or do you see a teapot?

Yes, it is difficult to see some of the patterns, but Sagittarius is not a great example. I see a teapot because the bottom half of the constellation is not visible to me. If you  are not familiar with it, you might want to check out The Stars: A New Way to See Them by HA Rey. He takes the constellations and connects the dots in a way that more closely resembles what they are named after.

 

What do you see when you look at Ursa Major? The first thing I see is the Big Dipper, but I can also trace the figure of the whole bear. In fact I showed it to a friend the other night who has been stargazing for some time, but never had realized how large Ursa Major is or knew how to trace the entire figure. He was delighted. Part of the problem is light pollution. We simply don’t see them the way the ancients did.

 

As for “No reason they can’t be renamed right now”, I will assume you are being at least mostly facetious. There are good reasons. While we are at it why don’t we rename our towns, mountain ranges, rivers, oceans and countries? Yes, we do from time to time, but usually it’s for political reasons. 
 

I use the names to refer to the constellations and find them in my atlases and guide books. I use the asterisms and bright stars to find them in the sky. They all have fixed boundaries now. The celestial shape of the entire constellation and the pattern are different things. They don’t have to correspond.  Forget how the name originated or what it is supposed to represent.

 

England is England and however it got that name, it is still a geographical area we refer to as England. There is no reason to change the names, it would just be confusing and serve no real purpose.

Edited by WillR, 10 June 2025 - 10:24 PM.

[Tony Flanders]

Yes, it is difficult to see some of the patterns, but Sagittarius is not a great example. I see a teapot because the bottom half of the constellation is not visible to me. If you  are not familiar with it, you might want to check out The Stars: A New Way to See Them by HA Rey. He takes the constellations and connects the dots in a way that more closely resembles what they are named after.

The stars now usually known as the Teapot form the bow and arrow of Sagittarius. It's quite a natural interpretation once you've seen it that way. As Will says, the stars that form the body of the centaur-archer himself are mighty low from mid-northern latitudes, and so hard to pick out. They were higher in ancient times, due to precession.

 

I love H.A. Rey's book, but I despise his constellations. I find them completely unnatural, and almost impossible to pick out. They're also wildly at variance with the traditional interpretations of the constellations as snapshot around 150 CE in Claudius Ptolemy's Almagest.

 

Truth be told, by the time Ptolemy described the constellations, their origins and original interpretations were already lost in the mists of time. I simply accept the fact that most of the original 48 constellations have little resemblance to their names, and go from there.

[NinePlanets]

WillR: Yes! the Great Bear looks very much like a bear when your sky is dark enough to see the head and legs. The one thing that doesn't fit is that long tail!    So, it remains "The Big Dipper"

 

EDIT: You know, Ursa Major could be a male lion too...

Edited by NinePlanets, 11 June 2025 - 01:14 PM.

[Dave Mitsky]

WillR: Yes! the Great Bear looks very much like a bear when your sky is dark enough to see the head and legs. The one thing that doesn't fit is that long tail!    So, it remains "The Big Dipper"

 

EDIT: You know, Ursa Major could be a male lion too...

Not in Great Britain where it's known as the Plough. 

 

There are a number of other nicknames ascribed to this asterism as well.

 

https://exploringthe...d-its-pointers/

 

https://www.glyphweb...ons/plough.html

 

https://nineplanets....the-big-dipper/

[Starman1]

This is Virgo.

Tell me you don't see a sperm whale, head on the left, tail flukes to the right.

I'm just sayin'...

 

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[WillR]

Not in Great Britain where it's known as the Plough. 

 

There are a number of other nicknames ascribed to this asterism as well.

 

https://exploringthe...d-its-pointers/

 

https://www.glyphweb...ions/plough.htm

 

https://nineplanets....the-big-dipper/

I think the Plough is just the Big Dipper, not the entire constellation.

[izar187]

This is Virgo.

Tell me you don't see a sperm whale, head on the left, tail flukes to the right.

I'm just sayin'...

No, it looks like old Hercules, who's fallen and he can't get up.  : )

[Dave Mitsky]

I think the Plough is just the Big Dipper, not the entire constellation.

Yes, that's what I said, which was also mentioned in the links that I provided.

 

This asterism is also known as the (Great) Wain (a type of cart pulled by a horse), Charles' Wain, (King) Arthur's Wain, the Wagon, and many other names.

[triplemon]

Adding to the confusion (?) is the fact that a number of deep sky objects and asterisms have multiple common names.

Right - constellation and other object names continue to be a metling pot of ancient cultures and the current ones. So they continue to (slowly) evolve, get contemporary names added.

 

Ursa Major vs the Big Dipper.
Sagitarius vs Teapot.

Owl vs ET Cluster

 

I would also have a question for Charles Darwin here: Did the tails of Bears evolve / shrink since antiquity ? Or why did the Romans not fix that ? Most folks there surely saw Bears in the circus for reference.

Edited by triplemon, 13 June 2025 - 01:53 AM.

[Dave Mitsky]

Ursa Major vs the Big Dipper.

Sagitarius vs the Teapot.

Owl vs ET ClusterOwl vs ET Cluster

The first two are asterisms that are part of larger constellations so they are not synonymous.

 

 

When it comes to DSOs, M17 has 5 different common names, NGC 7789 has at least 9 different common names, and NGC 457 has at least 15 different common names.

[NinePlanets]

I can't remember the whole story, but there is a tale about the Great Bear getting his long tail stuck in the ice, and thereby losing it. So today bears have short tails.

[rutherfordt]

I can't remember the whole story, but there is a tale about the Great Bear getting his long tail stuck in the ice, and thereby losing it. So today bears have short tails.

My grandmother told me that story many decades ago-- I guess its more widespread than I thought it was!

 

Tom
 

[ChristianG]

If it's not a tail, could it be 3 of the things that bears are reported to do in the woods? I can see the old lady smiling when she said to the kids sitting around her: 'it's his tail!"

 

--Christian