60 replies to this topic

[VA3DSO]

I think you are misunderstanding or maybe oversimplifying the meaning of Zen. Being able to calm oneself and deal with a complicated situation is also an expression of zen. Some people actually love and find relaxation in sorting out what others might find difficult problems. One must each find their own Buddha nature. I see you found yours.

 

Bill

Oh I am definitely misusing / simplifying the term "Zen" here for sure. I am using a more public understanding of the term in that to find your "Zen" is to be happy, calm, content. I fully understand that one can be Zen regardless of what they are doing or what equipment they have (regardless of how complicated or simplistic it may be). I can be Zen sitting on my zafu in my garden as well as being jostled around while standing in a crowded subway train. 

 

Clear skies!

 

Rick

[wa4chq]

I'm still fairly new to the hobby....going on 4 years now.  If I take photos, I've been using my phone cam and have been fine with that but then I thought I would like to get 'real' photos so I purchased a used mirror-less camera.  I may have had it once or twice.  Bottom line is, I like looking through the eyepiece with my eye and I don't want to spend lots of time setting up the camera to get a few photos.  When it cools down, I'll give it another go.  On another tack....I need something to sit on.  The drum throne looks nice but I also like the folding chair shown in balcon3's photo....this is gonna be a tough decision...lol.  ---- Neil wa4chq

[dpselinger]

Floating in star fields with my bino-chair!  Here's why it can feel very immersive:

 

- laying back in a comfortable zero-gravity chair with access to the entire sky
- using both eyes, very close and aligned with the eyepieces, in a large field of view, unable to see anything else
- looking straight through to a non-inverted view
- very finely adjusting the view direction with a slight touch: up, down, left, right
- using low magnification, to give perspective and spatial relationships
- remaining steady and comfortable
- easy high elevation viewing, where it’s generally clearer and darker, penetrating less atmospheric thickness

 

 

 

[Tony Cifani]

A Zen like observing experience can happen for me when observing with almost any kind of telescope, or even with no telescope at all. Like others have mentioned, this seems to happen more often when using small portable telescopes or binoculars than large serious telescopes. I think it comes down to intention. If I’m traveling to a dark site with a larger serious telescope, and I have very deliberate intentions to observe specific objects, like faint galaxies, then I’m likely to have some expectations for the evening, and a well thought out plan. I’m not an astrophotographer, but I can only imagine how much additional gear and attention to detail is needed to do this and do it well.

 

On the other hand, I woke up early a few mornings ago around 4AM for no reason at all and noticed the Summer Triangle from my bedroom window. I made coffee and grabbed a small lightweight 60mm refractor and a couple of simple eyepieces and spent the next couple of hours mindlessly and happily sweeping the predawn skies.

[Don W]

The equipment is the least important part of the enjoyment of observing for me. Being in

a natural setting under dark skies and no artificial sounds equates to Zen. 

[Sketcher]

I recently took at stab at doing some EAA with my telescopes and mirrorless camera. I immediately didn't like it. The cables. The laptop. The software. The EQ mount. Futzing with my camera. Futzing with the focus. I quickly lost my "Zen" even when I did see an image on the laptop screen.

 

A few days later I was in the backyard with my Alt-Az mount, my drum stool and a few eyepieces. That was it. It was SOOOO relaxing! I felt completely at peace.  

 

Have any of you encountered something similar where you went from complicated to simple in your setup?

 

What is your "Zen" observing setup?

I take "Zen" to informally be more representative of a state of mind than of any setup (equipment).  But if we must go into this in an equipment context, then to me it would be more in line with simple, manually operated, small-aperture equipment than with anything else.

 

By the way, to me and to the ways in which I use them, GEMs (German Equatorial Mounts) are actually simpler, and easier to use than alt-az mounts -- no computers, no motors, no wires, no power supplies, and yes -- no more time needed for setup and alignment than it would take for even the simplest of alt-az mounts.  GEMs don't have to be complicated and/or time-consuming to set up and use -- certainly not for simple, visual, "Zen astronomy".

 

Zen and the art of astronomy:

 

 

 

 

[Tony Flanders]

By the way, to me and to the ways in which I use them, GEMs (German Equatorial Mounts) are actually simpler, and easier to use than alt-az mounts -- no computers, no motors, no wires, no power supplies, and yes -- no more time needed for setup and alignment than it would take for even the simplest of alt-az mounts.  GEMs don't have to be complicated and/or time-consuming to set up and use -- certainly not for simple, visual, "Zen astronomy".

I agree with Jon; the equipment doesn't matter. It took me longer to learn to use a GEM than to learn to use an alt-az mount, but at this point they both seem completely natural.

[justfred]

I don't know that much about Zen but I do know what it's like to get lost in a star filled sky with a big grin on my face...

I'm a minimalist when it comes to equipment but I'll admit I do see that same big smile on my buddies' faces as they peer into flickering monitors to the hum of a 3kW generator running the trailer load of equipment they took two hours to set up.

It's all good.


Fred

[Airship]

I enjoy using various EAA setups when it's just not comfortable to be outside. I have a lot of imaging options, but the most relaxing and the closest to pure observing is a small, remotely controlled telescope fitted with a Revolution Imager 2 video camera. The camera itself isn't that great, but it has a very low fiddle factor. I call it my worst camera, but my best eyepiece.

 

However...

 

My true Zen is the piece and calm I find outside sitting comfortable at the eyepiece. Just about any scope will do, but if I had to pick one special scope, it would have to me my 5" f/16 vintage Unitron 510...

 

 

There's no greater magic than sitting under this scope point skyward.

 

Wonderful!

 

[truckerfromaustin]

I'm a confirmed Luddite when it comes to astronomy. I only use a RACI finder scope to find my targets. My Teeter is a fantastic telescope, but it's difficult to get in and out of the truck. I carry my Comet Hunter and my AT92 with me right now. Both are used on an Astro Tech Voyager mount. Ignore the EXOS GEM holding the Comet Hunter. It's sitting in a closet at home. It's been 4 months since I've used a telescope, but I expect to have clear skies tonight!!

 

Clear Skies 

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[Jon Isaacs]

 

By the way, to me and to the ways in which I use them, GEMs (German Equatorial Mounts) are actually simpler, and easier to use than alt-az mounts -- no computers, no motors, no wires, no power supplies, and yes -- no more time needed for setup and alignment than it would take for even the simplest of alt-az mounts.  GEMs don't have to be complicated and/or time-consuming to set up and use -- certainly not for simple, visual, "Zen astronomy".

 

A GEM needs to be polar aligned. That is unnecessary with a alt-az mount.  GEMs are inherently more complicated than an alt-az mount, they require counterweights so they are heavier and require more robust construction.  They also require a third adjustment to provide polar alignment.  GEMs are particularly problematic with Newtonians, large Newtonians in particular.  The rotation of the OTA, focuser and finder as one moves across the sky, fighting with the counterweights, it's not all that easy even with rotating rings.

 

 

For smaller scopes, GEMS are more workable than for large scopes. 

 

Communing with the universe, that can be done with most any telescope, binoculars or no telescope.  

 

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs, 16 June 2025 - 11:29 AM.

[weis14]

The equipment is the least important part of the enjoyment of observing for me. Being in

a natural setting under dark skies and no artificial sounds equates to Zen. 

This is true for me too.  My most memorable viewing sessions have little to do with what equipment I thought to bring and much more about the ambiance.  Sitting in a large clearing in a northern Michigan forest on a summer night with the sounds of animals all around and the blazing Milky Way overhead, having and using a telescope is an afterthought.  

Edited by weis14, 16 June 2025 - 06:56 AM.

[Dale Smith]

My zen observing is definitely just going out with one of my binoculars. I love using my telescopes, but there's something about the ease and simplicity of observing with binoculars that is so satisfying and relaxing.

It’s the same for me. The elegant simplicity of binoculars, especially handheld, is so very relaxing and satisfying.

 

For example, this Moonstar 6.5x32 last October, to view that fall’s bright comet:

 

 

 

When it comes to telescopes, I love the elegant simplicity of grab-and-go coupled with alt-az—these two 70mm-ish refractors are “Zen” for me.

 

 

Edited by Dale Smith, 16 June 2025 - 11:22 AM.

[rustynpp]

One of the best things visual astronomy has going for it are the outstanding *~*vibes*~*. There is simply nothing quite like being alone under a dark, starry sky, hunting down ancient photons with just a telescope, star atlas and little red flashlight. The result is a feeling of connection with the universe that can best be described as spiritual - deeply fulfilling and calming in a way I imagine many people experience as part of true religious devotion (something I've never had). Colloquially, zen is an apt word for it. Truly, when I go observing, what I'm really looking to do is to recapture that feeling.

 

For me, everything OP described as part and parcel of EAA - cables, laptop, etc. - immediately and totally kills the *~*vibes*~*. Simplicity is paramount. 

 

Nice post!

 

Cheers,

Nick

[BrentKnight]

One of the best things visual astronomy has going for it are the outstanding *~*vibes*~*. There is simply nothing quite like being alone under a dark, starry sky, hunting down ancient photons with just a telescope, star atlas and little red flashlight. The result is a feeling of connection with the universe that can best be described as spiritual - deeply fulfilling and calming in a way I imagine many people experience as part of true religious devotion (something I've never had). Colloquially, zen is an apt word for it. Truly, when I go observing, what I'm really looking to do is to recapture that feeling.

 

For me, everything OP described as part and parcel of EAA - cables, laptop, etc. - immediately and totally kills the *~*vibes*~*. Simplicity is paramount. 

 

Nice post!

 

Cheers,

Nick

Maybe 10 years ago or so I would have totally agreed with this.  Now... not so much.

 

Here in the south there are some flying creatures that come out at night that you could cook on the grill (and they see you as a very tasty meal).  The heat and humidity are unpleasant and easily destroy any vibes I might be trying to generate.  My eyepieces would constantly fog over whenever my head got near them.  Bending over to view through my eyepieces was breaking my neck and back.  And don't even get me started on the frustrations of dealing with local LP.

 

Honestly, I'm willing to give up a little of that vibe (while fully acknowledging that it did exist) for a little peace and comfort when I do EAA from inside the house.  I get a non-stop wow from seeing things I could never have hoped to see before.

[Sketcher]

A GEM needs to be polar aligned. That is unnecessary with a alt-az mount.  GEMs are inherently more complicated than an alt-az mount, they require counterweights so they are heavier and require more robust construction.  They also require a third adjustment to provide polar alignment.  GEMs are particularly problematic with Newtonians, large Newtonians in particular.  The rotation of the OTA, focuser and finder as one moves across the sky, fighting with the counterweights, it's not all that easy even with rotating rings.

Jon, I have three GEMs.  When it comes to my polar alignment routines, all I need do is take out one of those tripod/mounts, set the tripod feet on the ground, utilizing a bit of "Zen" , and the mount is instantly polar aligned -- no second nor third adjustments required.

 

One of my GEMs is 30 years old.  I've not so much as "tweaked" it's latitude adjustment, nor its azimuth adjustment since that first time I set it up 30 years ago.  The GEM shown with "Little Red Riding Scope" (see my previous post) is 24 years old.  The adjustments on that mount haven't needed to be tweaked in the past 24 years.  Then there's my most recent GEM, acquired in 2015.  As with the others, it's needed no further adjustments subsequent to the first time I set it up.

 

That's the way it's been for me and my GEMs -- for my strictly visual purposes, with my strictly manual usage, with three of my refracting telescopes.

 

You want to talk about weight?  Just how do you think the weight of the GEM-mounted scope that I posted a picture of (an 80mm f/5 achromat) -- with its counterweight, mount and tripod -- contrast with the weights of either of the Newtonian reflectors (even without their mounts) in the photo that you posted?

 

You're right, large Newtonians do have a lot of potential problem areas that their users/owners have to be aware of and have to address.  But clearly in this thread, in my previous posting, I wasn't referring to large Newtonians.

 

For me, with my observing style, with my equipment, I get the benefits of a GEM (easy tracking via movement along just one axis) without all the hassles that would apply to Newtonians, go-to mounts, and/or imaging setups.

 

There are more than one way in which a GEM may be used, just as there are more than one kind of telescope that a GEM can be used with.  A GEM can be a pain for some to set up and use, but that doesn't translate into those mounts being pains for everyone else to set up and use.

 

Let's relax and enjoy the Zen of our astronomical passions  .

[25585]

Zen for me is an alt az mount, a scope to look through in it, and easy-use eyepieces. I do not work through lists, set targets, switch on gadgets except a red LED. 

[scout]

To me, having an adjustable height chair is an important part of comfortable zen observing. Hunching over, getting on my knees, bending over or contorting my body in any way is the opposite of a relaxing night.

[VA3DSO]

Jon, I have three GEMs.  When it comes to my polar alignment routines, all I need do is take out one of those tripod/mounts, set the tripod feet on the ground, utilizing a bit of "Zen" , and the mount is instantly polar aligned -- no second nor third adjustments required.

 

One of my GEMs is 30 years old.  I've not so much as "tweaked" it's latitude adjustment, nor its azimuth adjustment since that first time I set it up 30 years ago.  The GEM shown with "Little Red Riding Scope" (see my previous post) is 24 years old.  The adjustments on that mount haven't needed to be tweaked in the past 24 years.  Then there's my most recent GEM, acquired in 2015.  As with the others, it's needed no further adjustments subsequent to the first time I set it up.

 

That's the way it's been for me and my GEMs -- for my strictly visual purposes, with my strictly manual usage, with three of my refracting telescopes.

 

You want to talk about weight?  Just how do you think the weight of the GEM-mounted scope that I posted a picture of (an 80mm f/5 achromat) -- with its counterweight, mount and tripod -- contrast with the weights of either of the Newtonian reflectors (even without their mounts) in the photo that you posted?

 

You're right, large Newtonians do have a lot of potential problem areas that their users/owners have to be aware of and have to address.  But clearly in this thread, in my previous posting, I wasn't referring to large Newtonians.

 

For me, with my observing style, with my equipment, I get the benefits of a GEM (easy tracking via movement along just one axis) without all the hassles that would apply to Newtonians, go-to mounts, and/or imaging setups.

 

There are more than one way in which a GEM may be used, just as there are more than one kind of telescope that a GEM can be used with.  A GEM can be a pain for some to set up and use, but that doesn't translate into those mounts being pains for everyone else to set up and use.

 

Let's relax and enjoy the Zen of our astronomical passions  .

For me, an AZ4 mount or an EQ5 mount means either one trip out the door or three trips out the door. Same OTA, same tripod - the only difference is the mount. Setting up my EQ5 to be polar aligned isn't too much effort (I have a polar alignment scope) but it's an extra step that I don't have to do with the AZ4. Of course, the flip side is once set up the EQ5 tracks beautifully. But that is a feature I seem to be caring about less and less these days...

 

 

[WISDOC]

  A clear moonless sky, a comfy chair, a miller high life, and my 10" dob. The night sounds my ears can catch is my music. I get lost just looking at the stars. Not many things better than this for me.

[Jon Isaacs]

Jon, I have three GEMs.  When it comes to my polar alignment routines, all I need do is take out one of those tripod/mounts, set the tripod feet on the ground, utilizing a bit of "Zen" , and the mount is instantly polar aligned -- no second nor third adjustments required.

 

One of my GEMs is 30 years old.  I've not so much as "tweaked" it's latitude adjustment, nor its azimuth adjustment since that first time I set it up 30 years ago.  The GEM shown with "Little Red Riding Scope" (see my previous post) is 24 years old.  The adjustments on that mount haven't needed to be tweaked in the past 24 years.  Then there's my most recent GEM, acquired in 2015.  As with the others, it's needed no further adjustments subsequent to the first time I set it up.

 

That's the way it's been for me and my GEMs -- for my strictly visual purposes, with my strictly manual usage, with three of my refracting telescopes.

 

You want to talk about weight?  Just how do you think the weight of the GEM-mounted scope that I posted a picture of (an 80mm f/5 achromat) -- with its counterweight, mount and tripod -- contrast with the weights of either of the Newtonian reflectors (even without their mounts) in the photo that you posted?

 

You're right, large Newtonians do have a lot of potential problem areas that their users/owners have to be aware of and have to address.  But clearly in this thread, in my previous posting, I wasn't referring to large Newtonians.

 

For me, with my observing style, with my equipment, I get the benefits of a GEM (easy tracking via movement along just one axis) without all the hassles that would apply to Newtonians, go-to mounts, and/or imaging setups.

 

There are more than one way in which a GEM may be used, just as there are more than one kind of telescope that a GEM can be used with.  A GEM can be a pain for some to set up and use, but that doesn't translate into those mounts being pains for everyone else to set up and use.

 

Let's relax and enjoy the Zen of our astronomical passions  .

Sketcher:

 

You observe from the same location..  Many of us observe from different locations.  Last fall, I was with my granddaughter observing in Lolo, Montana, that's about 14 degrees north of here.  Adjustments would be required.

 

Yes I want to talk about weight, the weight of the mount required for a particular telescope.  

 

 

In your previous post, you discussed the use of GEMs in general.  If you want to agree with me, that GEMs can be a real pain in the rear for everyone including you, I am OK with that. They are inherently more complicated and heavier, particularly in the larger sizes. 

 

I would just say that if one is looking to have a simple experience communing with the universe with a larger aperture scope, an alt-az mount is normally easier to setup and use.  The Dobsonian made that possible.  No knobs to turn to track, the tube never rotates, the finders never become inaccessible, it is just me and the telescope, working together as companions, guided by intuition.  It doesn't get any simpler than that. 

 

Jon

[JoeFaz]

An alt-az mount is simpler than an equatorial mount. One can argue that they prefer a GEM, or that they don't find it a pain personally, but you can't make the argument that it isn't more complicated than an alt-az without being objectively wrong.

[balcon3]

An alt-az mount is simpler than an equatorial mount. One can argue that they prefer a GEM, or that they don't find it a pain personally, but you can't make the argument that it isn't more complicated than an alt-az without being objectively wrong.

If you want to track and observe an object over a period of time, I think one can make an argument that a GEM, where you only have to adjust one axis, is simpler in its use than an Alt-Az, where you have to adjust two axes. I can understand why some people would consider that the GEM, once it is set up, to be more "Zen".

Edited by balcon3, 17 June 2025 - 12:01 PM.

[N-1]

If you want to track and observe an object over a period of time, I think one can make an argument that a GEM, where you only have to adjust one axis, is simpler in its use than an Alt-Az, where you have to adjust two axes. I can understand why some people would consider that the GEM, once it is set up, to be more "Zen".

Considering that set-up & tear-down is not strictly part of observing, GEMs (or tracking platforms) are brilliant tools to reach a zen-like experience during observing requiring no inputs from the observer once tracking, even if they add a little complexity before and after.  

[Jon Isaacs]

Considering that set-up & tear-down is not strictly part of observing, GEMs (or tracking platforms) are brilliant tools to reach a zen-like experience during observing requiring no inputs from the observer once tracking, even if they add a little complexity before and after.  

 

Is a motorcycle more Zen like than a bicycle?

 

The more I do myself, the more connected I am, the closer I am, the more I am "in the moment."

 

When doing outreach, using an undriven mount, people learn about and see for themselves the rotation of the earth.

 

 

I would argue that walking is more Zen like than driving a car... 

 

Jon