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Superb 6mm Lunar/Planetary's AND in production?

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#1 Cathexis

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 02:48 PM

So basically,

 

I've read most of Bob P.'s excellent 6mm shoot-out but he himself admits many of the best contenders

are now discontinued. I'm wondering about those still in production so you can buy brand new and do

NOT have to buy a set - which I think cancels out tha ZAO-II's, IIRC. Not sure of the status of TMB but

I think it is occasional runs of this or that mm so who knows ? I love Pentax but their 6mm is gone away

and the 6mm size is my ideal and a 5mm or 7mm (which Pentax does make as XW's) won't do it.

 

Bob's shoot-out also rated only Radian from TV and I don't know if that was the only 6mm they had then

or if it is just assumed the Deloi and Ethoi are ruled out de-facto as genuine planetary EP's. But,.... if

we look at best lunar/planetary EP's still in production and available as a single, new EP I wonder what

one could be best? Obviously I'm ruling out the *true* winners as those would be used, but now D/C'd

ones like the ZAO-I 6mm - possibly THE standard of them all.

 

But I see no reason to leave a valid hole unfilled just because I can't afford to buy only the best for now.

I'd rather in outside using a decent 6mm than moaning about not having my full set of ZAO-II's or griping

about used prices. I do have two Siebert's on the way: a BK-7 3.5mm & BK-7 4.5mm planespherics. Has

anyone here used his 6mm Mono's? I think he makes one.

 

Again, I'm not asking why I should buy used, I'm asking about what is best and new in 6mm planetary's,

 

Cathexis


Edited by Cathexis, 17 May 2015 - 02:50 PM.


#2 csrlice12

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 03:00 PM

6mm Delos....



#3 Doug Culbertson

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 03:03 PM

6mm Delos....

 

That would be my choice as well. 



#4 Scott99

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 03:45 PM

You're trying to fill the hole in a set of ZAO?  Seems like the most similar ep available would be the 6mm Tak or Fujiyama HD orthos.  The Fuji's are available, I think the 6mm Tak is still "coming soon"

 

you're buying 1-lens eps, you sound like a "minimum glass" type of guy, you won't go wrong with these two orthos, I've used both Tak and Univ. Optics HD orthos to fill the gaps in my AP SPL's, you won't notice any drop-off from the Zeiss


Edited by Scott99, 17 May 2015 - 03:48 PM.


#5 Kutno

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 03:49 PM

6mm Ethos



#6 Cathexis

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 05:02 PM

Trying to fill a hole in my EP's in general, not in my set of ZAO's (I wish though).

 

FWIW,  I thought minimum glass is considered a prime quality of planetary EP's

so I'm surprised at the Deloi & Ethos ideas. But I am also a Newbie and no expert!

 

I have a C6-R, f/8 with fL of 1200. My EP's in this general range would run from a Pentax XW 10mm,

Delos 8mm then to the Sieberts as described above. So my mags. are now 120X, 150X, 266X, 342X.

A 7mm yields 171X, a 5mm = 250X. Too much of one, too little from the other.So something around

200X is a reasonable addition. Since Visual is my sole pursuit and Lunar/Planetary my main interest

I figured a nice 6mm planetary ought to be just right.

 

Cathexis



#7 Kutno

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 07:19 PM

 

 

FWIW,  I thought minimum glass is considered a prime quality of planetary EP's

so I'm surprised at the Deloi & Ethos ideas. But I am also a Newbie and no expert!

 

 

 

Nothing beats personal experience.  You are as expert as anyone in this forum.  You will know what you like in the 6mm range.  You have an 8mm Delos.  The 6mm Delos and 6mm Ethos present a similar picture.  I like the latter better because it presents more of a very, very good thing.  I find the quality of views provided by the 6mm Ethos and 8mm Ethos to be similar; albeit, at different focal lengths.  Minimum glass is not the primary determinant for superior lunar or planetary views.  You will learn this by yourself.         


Edited by Kutno, 17 May 2015 - 07:20 PM.


#8 Max Power

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 08:30 PM

Delos, or if too much, then Brandon, if still too much then Takahashi.

 

These 3 are far and away the best available today in 6mm.



#9 bgi

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 09:07 PM

12mm Delos with a quality 2X barlow or focal extender.  Two eyepieces for the price of 1.2 or so, maybe1.3.

 

Folks who visually distinguish a 2x barlowed 12mm Delos from a 6mm Delos in a blind test have nothing to learn here in this thread, but  perhaps something to contribute?  :)



#10 pga7602

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 10:57 PM

You're trying to fill the hole in a set of ZAO?  Seems like the most similar ep available would be the 6mm Tak or Fujiyama HD orthos.  The Fuji's are available, I think the 6mm Tak is still "coming soon"

 

you're buying 1-lens eps, you sound like a "minimum glass" type of guy, you won't go wrong with these two orthos, I've used both Tak and Univ. Optics HD orthos to fill the gaps in my AP SPL's, you won't notice any drop-off from the Zeiss

6mm are available. I think you are thinking of the 4mm



#11 SpooPoker

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 11:56 PM


anyone here used his 6mm Mono's? I think he makes one.

 

Again, I'm not asking why I should buy used, I'm asking about what is best and new in 6mm planetary's,

 

Cathexis

 

I would avoid a 6mm true mono.  The Supermonocentric (which is not really a Mono, it sorta is but is not) at 6mm is eyepiece gold and pretty much as good as the Z-II on axis.  I believe APM have a couple of new ones on their site, they are running around 460EUR's a pop.  Not exactly cheap.... 

 

Some other options:

 

Televue Delos = good

Takahashi 6mm Ortho = good

Brandon 6mm = good

Fujiyama/University 6mm Ortho = good

 

+/- with Delos:  About half a pound, large heavy eyepiece.  Not for everyone but good medium-wide well corrected field. 

 

+/- with Brandon:  Overpriced, but decent quality eyepiece.

 

+/- with University / Fujiyama:  Best bang for buck ortho, a little too much scatter for my taste, but very close in quality to the Brandon for half the price.

 

+/- with Tak Ortho:  Probably the best Orthos on the market at the moment.  I shot out these against my old .96" MC-Taks and they blew the glass off these oldies - they were in another league.  And many people highly regard the old .96" Taks.  I do not have a 6mm Delos but I would bet a good chunk of change that the 6mm Tak I have would easily beat it for scatter and color fidelity.  I could be wrong, but I was not amazed with the Delos's I tried - I thought they were decent all round eyepieces but something was lacking for me... 

 

My personal recommendation.  Go with the Fujiyama, it is not the best of the bunch but very close on axis and plenty good enough to give very nice images.  The Tak Ortho would be my second choice (costs $50 more), Brandon third choice and last the Delos.  If I were looking at open clusters or nebula, the Delos would take it by a landslide...

 

It is worth noting that none of these eyepieces are light years behind the gold standard.  If you really end up developing a taste for the high end and expensive, then give the 6mm Supermonocentric a go.  A Pentax O-6mm is also a decent option.  The Z-II is much too much overpriced, it should be in the $400 - $500 range, that is its level.  It certainly is not worth double...



#12 GeezerGazer

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 01:43 AM

Remember that "worth" or value is subjective and different for each individual.  Generally, deciding if a particular eyepiece is "worth" the asking price is very dependent on how badly someone "wants" that eyepiece when factoring in the bank account balance.  For those who keep $25,000 in their astronomy account, an $800 eyepiece doesn't present much of a challenge.  And, there are those who "want" something enough to just buy it; foregoing other possible expenses.  But most of us do have limits.  I have been fortunate to own many eyepieces, some old, some new, some presenting wide and some narrow fields, some that were down right cheap for what they gave back and some that were absurdly expensive.  I enjoy trying eyepieces and have learned much from the experience.  I will not own ZAO I or II's again; nor will I buy RKE's again.  But I enjoyed using both.  They were both "worth" the price of admission in their own way.  

 

I have found that rating eyepieces is very difficult for me, especially since most eyepieces perform differently in different types of telescopes.  The older my eyes get, the more difficult it becomes for me to assess differences, and on-axis, the differences in many eyepieces are very subtle anyway.  Companies like TeleVue and Pentax have shown that wide-field eyepieces can be used very successfully for planetary viewing.  So although some observers find issue with multi-element eyepieces with a broad FOV, others find them perfect for their style of observing.  

 

What I have found is that some eyepieces do perform better at certain tasks, so I do own a variety of designs that seem to complement one another.  But to say that Delos is better than XW's or orthos are better than Plossls, you must see for yourself, with your eyes through your telescope, under the skies where YOU observe.  Even then, you will find that one may perform best on one target while the other performs best on a different target.  These are subjective tests with a multitude of variables.  It's hard to correlate test data when you change the variables.  

 

I think we live in a time that would draw envy from astronomers before us.  We have lots of choices.  So, Cathexis, go for the gold.  If you want the wide field views of the XW, Delos or Ethos, go for it.  If you are willing to accept the narrow FOV, go for the Tak or UO HD, both of which are very good and can be purchased new.  If you are willing to wait to buy used, find a 6mm Pentax ortho, a ZAO or a TMB Supermonocentric.  Each of them presents differently, but each of them presents splendidly.  

 

One last note that you might find helpful... maybe not!  Last year, I was searching for the best 6mm planetary eyepiece I could find.  It is my most used focal length for lunar & planetary observing through my scope.  I purchased and compared 5 eyepieces:

   ZAO I  (used)

   ZAO II (used)

   TMB SMC  (used)

   Ethos (new)

   UO HD  (new)

 

I used these eyepieces for about 3 months and did so when conditions were poor, good and great.  In the end, I sold both ZAO's and the TMB... not because they did not perform; but because the Ethos and UO HD gave me something different that I liked better.  I did find that on nights of poor to average seeing, there was simply no discernible difference between an $850 ZAO and a $100 UO HD.  When conditions improved (maybe 15% of the nights), I saw subtle differences in contrast and scatter, but almost no difference in on-axis sharpness.  YMMV, but my selection was based on what pleased me.  I just recently sold the UO HD and purchased a Pentax Ortho which I do prefer.  I mostly use a medium size (140) apo refractor and Zeiss prism diagonal... my choice might have been different though with a different scope or even with a different diagonal.  I think the TMB SMC might be the king of scatter control (I own 3 of them now) so they are the best for me when looking at close doubles with a magnitude difference... but they present their image through a very narrow FOV, so I much prefer the Ethos for extended targets and for locating targets with their enormous FOV.  If the seeing is average or below, I always use the Ethos.  On those few nights a year when I can actually see a difference, I use the Pentax orthos and TMB SMC's.  

 

Good luck.  Finding the right eyepiece to fit your needs can be a delightful challenge.  


Edited by GeezerGazer, 18 May 2015 - 02:19 AM.


#13 george tatsis

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 01:46 AM

If I were to start over again, I would buy the Vixen SLV just for planetary.

 

http://www.vixenopti..._eyepieces.html

 

If my goal was not just planetary but DSOs as well,

 

then Delos would be the obvious choice. All other comments provided here are equally sound, but Kutnos' post ( #7) sums it up

 

perfectly IMHO !

 

George


Edited by george tatsis, 18 May 2015 - 01:47 AM.


#14 junomike

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 06:08 AM

For Single EP's, I'd go UO HD/BGO or  Delos, but for the C6R you'd benefit from the 200X - 400X availability of the TV Zoom 3mm - 6mm.

 

Mike


Edited by junomike, 18 May 2015 - 06:09 AM.


#15 Cathexis

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:58 AM

In reply to ALL,

 

Thanks again for so much help. It is really appreciated. What I think

I should take from this thread the most is that EP's are a process.

In fact, it is true because although I'm slowly collecting equipment now

my goal is to retire from a orange/red site (now) to a blue site after I

retire in a few years(hopefully!). The change of skies would make an

obvious change in what might work best for me.

 

But I thank those with specific suggestions as it helps put me on the path.

 

Cathexis

 



#16 BillP

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:06 AM

Most all quality eyepieces out there do an excellent job in the planetary role.  So one can pick any good 6mm and the results will be excellent, reference the Delos as an example.  But for those seeking every last photon of capability, there are small gains in performance one can achieve above the excellent level with some of the premium planetary specialty eyepieces that have been produced -- e.g., ZAOs, TMB Supermonos, etc.  These of course all fall into that category of minimum glass.  The reason they do is simple physics in that less elements means less glass surfaces so less contrast robbing scatter which is so critical to the most critical planetary scrutiny.  So until someone produces a scatterless glass surface, will be impossible for a same quality complex eyepiece to have less scatter then a same quality minimum glass eyepiece.

 

From current production standpoints, there are a host of Abbe rebrands (apparent) out there in 6mm and there is the 6mm Brandon.  If it were me seeking a 6mm then I would probably do for the 6mm Delos as the "comfortable" viewer, then keep in the case a 6mm Brandon for those instances when I need a precision planetary scalpel for moments of most critical observation.  But would keep my eye on the used market for a 6mm in any of these: Pentax SMC Ortho, CZJ, AP-SPL as the lower priced fare, or a 6mm ZAO or Supermonocentric or Zeiss Monocentric for the ultimate.



#17 David E

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:34 AM

If I were to start over again, I would buy the Vixen SLV just for planetary.

 

http://www.vixenopti..._eyepieces.html

 


 

George

+1.  I have a mixture of the older versions of these (same glass afaik) but the newest version seems to have solved the notorious eye cup problem. To me these eyepieces have the best balance between getting the most contrast out of a comfortable-to-use eyepiece. I have tried a number of "planetary" eyepieces in this price range and lower and I keep coming back to my Vixens. The 2.5mm used with my apo refractors is a planetary dissector.


Edited by David E, 18 May 2015 - 09:35 AM.


#18 SandyHouTex

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:51 AM

I would have to say that the Fujiyama Orthos appear to be identical, except maybe for the coatings, to my much beloved Baader Genuine Orthos (NLA).  For $100, I don't think you can go wrong.



#19 precaud

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:53 AM

For Single EP's, I'd go UO HD/BGO or  Delos, but for the C6R you'd benefit from the 200X - 400X availability of the TV Zoom 3mm - 6mm.

 

 

Hmmm... my experience has been that, except moon, the brightest doubles, and perhaps Jupiter, image brightness becomes the limiting factor with a C6R above 200X. For that subset, and with that scope, you're better off barlowing to get the needed focal length.



#20 Kutno

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 06:45 PM

If I were to start over again, I would buy the Vixen SLV just for planetary.

 

If my goal was not just planetary but DSOs as well,

 

then Delos would be the obvious choice.

 

Thank you, George, for your kind words in post # 13.

 

Regarding LVs:  There is a soft spot for them in my heart.  Vixen introduced the 20mm of eye relief concept in shorter focal lengths before others did, and 4mm and 6mm samples from the original issue of the LV line made their way into the stable in anticipation of what they could deliver, in terms of comfort.  The latter focal length was sold to help someone close to me, but the former still resides with the select because its ergonomics are great; new stargazers appreciate what it delivers when they first look through its eye guard; and it just happens to be the first eyepiece to pull in Saturn's satellite Hyperion for me, in a 10.1" aperture scope, many years ago, from heavily light-polluted New York City.


Edited by Kutno, 18 May 2015 - 06:46 PM.


#21 Smithfr2000

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 09:48 AM

My 6mm fujiyama is the one which get the most use with my 12" for planetary work.



#22 NHRob

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 12:51 PM

De-Lites are coming!



#23 Ava

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 03:04 PM

A binoviewer is another option to consider. I find that on many nights, the bino will bring out more detail than viewing mono.

 

I'm kind of curious about the DeLites actually going forward. I do have a CZJ 6-O which is very very good, edges out the BGO slightly on good nights, I consider it almost in the same league as the Pentac XO 5mm. That said, I'm seriously thinking about doing a 6mm comparo between CZJ, DeLite, Delos and bino with 2x CZJ 10mm + 1.7 GPC and maybe 2x DeLite 10mm once 6mm & 10mm DeLites are in the market (I really hope they will flesh out the lineup with 1mm increments from 10mm). 



#24 precaud

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 05:02 PM

De-Lites are coming!

 

But not in 6mm, no ?


Edited by precaud, 19 May 2015 - 05:04 PM.


#25 izar187

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 11:18 AM

So basically,

 

I've read most of Bob P.'s excellent 6mm shoot-out but he himself admits many of the best contenders

are now discontinued. I'm wondering about those still in production so you can buy brand new and do

NOT have to buy a set - which I think cancels out tha ZAO-II's, IIRC. Not sure of the status of TMB but

I think it is occasional runs of this or that mm so who knows ? I love Pentax but their 6mm is gone away

and the 6mm size is my ideal and a 5mm or 7mm (which Pentax does make as XW's) won't do it.

 

Bob's shoot-out also rated only Radian from TV and I don't know if that was the only 6mm they had then

or if it is just assumed the Deloi and Ethoi are ruled out de-facto as genuine planetary EP's. But,.... if

we look at best lunar/planetary EP's still in production and available as a single, new EP I wonder what

one could be best? Obviously I'm ruling out the *true* winners as those would be used, but now D/C'd

ones like the ZAO-I 6mm - possibly THE standard of them all.

 

But I see no reason to leave a valid hole unfilled just because I can't afford to buy only the best for now.

I'd rather in outside using a decent 6mm than moaning about not having my full set of ZAO-II's or griping

about used prices. I do have two Siebert's on the way: a BK-7 3.5mm & BK-7 4.5mm planespherics. Has

anyone here used his 6mm Mono's? I think he makes one.

 

Again, I'm not asking why I should buy used, I'm asking about what is best and new in 6mm planetary's,

 

Cathexis

 

 

Perhaps one of Sieberts' StarSplitters.

My SS3's are significantly better than my barlow combinations of konig's, plossl's, ortho's and rke's.




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