58 replies to this topic

[Rbuckyfuller]

I was thinking of starting to look at a premium dob for deep sky due to my employment being secure and a bonus.

But then it occurred to me that Spacex and others are going to pollute the night sky no matter where you live.  See here  I see a satellite at least 5x every observing session already and they and Oneweb are going to launch thousands more.  Further, starlinks are brighter than 99% of all other satellites, and their big "fix" only reduced their brightness 50%.

 

There is no chance to stop what SpaceX is doing, or to stop the light pollution from street lights, etc.  So why fight it? 

 

Is it pointless to get a big dob in the long run?  Should I instead be looking at renting one for the time that we have left?  

My initial conclusion is that I should rent a big dob on trips, visit large observatories, and invest in a planetary setup instead, but I wanted to get others views as well.

Edited by Rbuckyfuller, 13 August 2021 - 07:29 AM.

[FirstSight]

The deteriorating night skies in the north Raleigh suburbs, and also down at Sunset Beach, have definitely substantially reduced the number of nights I consider it worth setting up to observe.  The summer haze at night is worse this summer, in part due to residual fine particulates from western fires that ride the prevailing W to E winds across the US.  Another component is development, plus the associated lighting.  Lots of businesses defeat the downward-directed design of LED lighting by mounting them at 45 degrees or on wall-pack style lighting, which is not only painfully bright to view directly, but noticeably increases the atmospheric scattering of ground lights onto particulates.

 

I wouldn't judge the situation for visual observers hopeless, but discouraging, yes.  We are increasingly being relegated to viewing brighter "eye candy" objects, with fainter, more challenging objects being less and less accessible without a substantial trip to at least a dark-ish location.

[LDW47]

I was thinking of starting to look at a premium dob for deep sky due to my employment being secure and a bonus.

But then it occurred to me that Spacex and others are going to pollute the night sky no matter where you live.  See here  I see a satellite at least 5x every observing session already and they and Oneweb are going to launch thousands more.  Further, starlinks are brighter than 99% of all other satellites, and their big "fix" only reduced their brightness 50%.

 

There is no chance to stop what SpaceX is doing, or to stop the light pollution from street lights, etc.  So why fight it? 

 

Is it pointless to get a big dob in the long run?  Should I instead be looking at renting one for the time that we have left?  

My initial conclusion is that I should rent a big dob on trips, visit large observatories, and invest in a planetary setup instead, but I wanted to get others views as well.

I have 10 scopes so tell me how much time do we have left  What do you know that most of us don't   Scope sales are still going strong, have a look around

Edited by LDW47, 13 August 2021 - 07:58 AM.

[happylimpet]

Light pollution is the enemy, not satellites, though I agree theyre annoying.

[LDW47]

My dear old ....... always said ' don't believe everything you hear or read or ...... '  Its better that way  The views through a new scope look better that way  Life is better that way

Edited by LDW47, 13 August 2021 - 08:02 AM.

[Rbuckyfuller]

I have 10 scopes so tell me how much time do we have left  What do you know that most of us don't   Scope sales are still going strong, have a look around

I know nothing that most people don't, which I why I came here to ask the question.

 

A recent study stated that sattellites would brighten the night sky by 10%  exceeding light pollution levels no matter where you observe.

 

Can you let me in on what I'm missing?

[Creedence]

Satellites are the enemy of imagers, although the trails you catch are processed out very easily- so maybe not a huge issue in the long run. Professional astronomers are more impacted by them though. That said, visual astronomers will see them zip by, but it won’t adversely impact your ability to observe deep space targets.

As others have said, light pollution, light pollution, light pollution. Short of a miraculous reversal of the growth in light pollution, more people will probably continue to explore mitigation strategies like image intensifiers, EAA, and/or AP. There’s always the option to drive to dark sky sites as well- if you are up for that.

Edited by Creedence, 13 August 2021 - 08:08 AM.

[LDW47]

I know nothing that most people don't, which I why I came here to ask the question.

 

A recent study stated that sattellites would brighten the night sky by 10%  exceeding light pollution levels no matter where you observe.

 

Can you let me in on what I'm missing?

I look skyward every dark nite under some absolutely black Bortle 1 skies at my remote camp and Bortle 5 skies in my backyard  Every satelitte that I see, which are not a lot, are faint and pin point not like what some fellow astronomers profess  I barely notice them when my eyes are trained, are glued to all the wonders looking down at me, calling  I can surely tell you what you are missing, its all those wonders above your head while you are worrying about what may never happen  Thats what you are missing every clear nite  Good Luck in yur future my fellow astronomer

[Jethro7]

I was thinking of starting to look at a premium dob for deep sky due to my employment being secure and a bonus.

But then it occurred to me that Spacex and others are going to pollute the night sky no matter where you live.  See here  I see a satellite at least 5x every observing session already and they and Oneweb are going to launch thousands more.  Further, starlinks are brighter than 99% of all other satellites, and their big "fix" only reduced their brightness 50%.

 

There is no chance to stop what SpaceX is doing, or to stop the light pollution from street lights, etc.  So why fight it? 

 

Is it pointless to get a big dob in the long run?  Should I instead be looking at renting one for the time that we have left?  

My initial conclusion is that I should rent a big dob on trips, visit large observatories, and invest in a planetary setup instead, but I wanted to get others views as well.

Hello Rbuckyfuller,

Check out the "Night Vision Astronomy" Forum here on CN. A night vision device is a total game changer. I have many years to enjoy the my dark sky views from my Bortle 8 backyard and I have no intentions of ever giving up or slowing down my Astro Hobby endeavours. You just need to work the problem. I have a feeling that if you do give up, you will end up regretting it. The Sky has all ways been falling but it has never hit the ground.

 

HAPPY SKIES TO YOU AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

Edited by Jethro7, 13 August 2021 - 08:23 AM.

[GGK]

Satellites have no impact on my visual observing.  I’d take take 100 satellite fly throughs each night vs. one neighbor’s flood light left on. 
 

My non-telescope-owning friends get excited when they see a satellite pass. 

[csa/montana]

 

Is it pointless to get a big dob in the long run?

I've never lived with the "what ifs" in life.  If you feel you would enjoy a big dob, and can afford one; get it, and enjoy it!  If the time down the road you are dissatisfied; you can always put it up for sale.

[Michael Tomich]

I suppose it's somehow my duty to be repulsed by satellites, but I remain fascinated by them. I have been since first trying to spot them as a child. I think the StarLink trains look pretty cool. I enjoy the night rocket launches from KSC that I am able to view from my local dark sky location as a highlight of my night of observing. Even while observing deep sky objects in the double digit magnitudes, if a satellite passes through my field of view, it's more fun than annoying. It certainly doesn't harm my night vision perceptibly. Anyway, all this supposed mayhem occurs shortly after sunset and shortly before sunrise. A study says satellites will increase light pollution by 10%. 10% of what, Times Square?, a New Mexico Desert?, the Summer Milky Way, a Full Moon?

 

As for actual light pollution, it's encroaching and it's awful, and it's unstoppable. And of course I contribute to it. There are plenty of dark skies away from civilization, but most everyone determines it to be impractical and socially isolating to leave civilization. Me included, so here I stay.

 

Reasons for not buying a large dob in the long run:

Your eyesight will deteriorate.

You will grow weak and not be able handle it.

They'll build another Wal-Mart with more lights and traffic.

 

Sounds like all the same reasons to not own a car. I will fight fate and keep trying to drive my car and look through my telescope..... and then I won't. If anyone wants to know what they're missing, just give up.

Edited by Michael Tomich, 13 August 2021 - 10:24 AM.

[ShaulaB]

If an observer enjoys deep sky objects, then getting a big Dob is the way to go. If this person has a vehicle for hauling the scope to dark skies, then yes indeed, go for it.

A big Dob, with a premium mirror, good collimation, and appropriate eyepieces, will give the best view of planets ever. There is a direct relation between aperture and resolution of fine detail. No refractor can match what a big Dob does for planets.

The satellites annoy me too. I think of them as Cylons in formation. But they are ephemeral, and I can ignore them when doing visual observing.

Light pollution is a much more serious concern.

Edited by ShaulaB, 13 August 2021 - 10:00 AM.

[happylimpet]

I know nothing that most people don't, which I why I came here to ask the question.

 

A recent study stated that sattellites would brighten the night sky by 10%  exceeding light pollution levels no matter where you observe.

 

Can you let me in on what I'm missing?

That's above natural, pristine sky brightness levels. So a tiny amount. If we assume pristine is 22, then satellites are adding sky brightness at about mag 24.5/sq arcsec. Can probably disregard that.

[DSOGabe]

Absolutely not! Satellites zipping by should not be an issue for visual observers. Even for imagers, they can fiddle around with the computer to remove them. Depending on where I'm pointing the scope for the night, I'll see anywhere from only 2-4 to several a night but they don't bother me.

 

Light pollution from neighbors or street lights are the big concern. That is something that can make a night miserable for either visual or imaging, especially with the booming popularity of blinding LEDs pointing in every direction except down!

[GeorgeLiv]

These so-called pollution issues are a matter of perception.

 

Over 80% of the Messier catalog can be spotted in 10x50 binoculars in the suburbs.

 

Unless you're imaging (with a dob??), a satellite slipping by your view is not distracting or disturbing at all, it should be briefly interesting, wondering: "what services does that little light offer humanity?"

[ziggeman]

photons from ancient times hitting the retina after travelling space is not the same as watching an lcd screen image. .to see things with your own eyes. Its a special feeling a dark, cold cloudless night. Its really good. My 6' newton with 28x magnification gave me some nice time with globulars yesterday. Like M13 and M3

Edited by ziggeman, 14 August 2021 - 01:31 AM.

[Tangent]

My non-telescope-owning friends get excited when they see a satellite pass. 

I remember when you could predict the Iridium flares on the heaven's above site.  I would figure out when a good one was going to happen, then when I would be with a group of people I would point up to the sky and tell everyone to look in that location.  It was always entertaining. 

[GGK]

I remember when you could predict the Iridium flares on the heaven's above site.  I would figure out when a good one was going to happen, then when I would be with a group of people I would point up to the sky and tell everyone to look in that location.  It was always entertaining. 

I find things like that pretty cool.  I had most of the people on my street out one evening this year to see the ISS pass overhead.  It was about 5 degrees off Zenith and lasted nearly 5 minutes.  Everyone was so surprised they could see it. I will say it was the best flyover I've seen.   I find the same with satellites - my friends think they hit the lottery when they see one.  

[Tony Flanders]

Absolutely not! Satellites zipping by should not be an issue for visual observers.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I already find satellites to be a serious nuisance, and that will get much more true if the numbers increase tenfold as forecast.

At latitudes between 40N and 50N, which includes a large fraction of all the world's observers, there are huge numbers of bright satellites right after the end of astronomical twilight, especially in the summer. Anybody who doesn't notice them either isn't looking, has abnormally poor eyesight, or routinely starts observing long after the end of astro twilight -- and not at all around midsummer. They are sufficiently common to make it ever-so-slightly harder to recognize the constellations, because moving objects are much more eye-catching than stationary objects. Multiply the number by ten and the problem will become non-trivial.

And I do encounter enough bright telescopic satellites to harm my dark adaptation from time to time. But not much more than if I happen to inadvertently glance at Venus or Jupiter.

 

Nonetheless, I would say that even multiplied tenfold, satellites would be more of an aesthetic blight than a practical problem for visual observers. Not as bad as mosquitoes.

[LDW47]

Tony  You are completely wrong on this one, it's plain and simple Your description doesn't coincide with the reality of the nitely views in my dark twilight world, not in the .......   I wouldn't paint everyone's world with your stick

Edited by LDW47, 15 August 2021 - 08:52 AM.

[Jon Isaacs]

I've never lived with the "what ifs" in life.  If you feel you would enjoy a big dob, and can afford one; get it, and enjoy it!  If the time down the road you are dissatisfied; you can always put it up for sale.

 

 

Realistically, if you have to ask whether you should get a "big Dob", it's probably best not to. Big Dobs are a hassle and you've got to know without asking that it's the right scope for you..

 

If a few (thousand) satellites are going to deter you, there's a lot more bigger stuff to be concerned about.

 

I see a lot of satellites, they pass through the field of view, I see them when I'm star hopping.. they're part of life, I think airplanes are brighter.

 

Jon

[bobhen]

For the visual observer, more satellites should not be an issue.

 

Light pollution is a more serious issue. Light pollution kills contrast, and for deep sky observing contrast is just as important as aperture. That’s why in a dark sky a small scope can deliver more than a larger one used in light pollution. 

 

I live in heavy light pollution and have owned 15-inch Dobsonians. You can still see a lot but there is no question that many objects are just not as impressive or not visible at all.

 

These days I use a smaller scope coupled with an image intensifier. Now my 102mm refractor and C8 show me a heck of a lot more than my large telescope (used just visually) ever did.

 

If you live in light pollution and cannot travel to a dark sky, as many do, there are solutions today than might surprise you.

 

I’ve done Visual, EAA and Night Vision and the emotional impact of seeing an object for the first time (on a screen, through glass or through an intensifier) is exactly the same thrill no matter what tool is used.

 

Bob

[Tony Flanders]

Tony  You are completely wrong on this one, it's plain and simple Your description doesn't coincide with the reality of the nitely views in my dark twilight world, not in the .......   I wouldn't paint everyone's world with your stick

We live under the same skies as far as satellites are concerned. Actually, you should be seeing slightly more than I do, since you live a few degrees farther north. The difference is in our perceptions, not our objective realities.

 

Try lying on your back at the end of astronomical twilight and looking consciously for moving points of light. I bet you can count a dozen all at the same moment. Then keep watching, see how quickly they become invisible, and consider how many you could spot over the course of an hour.

 

As far as telescopic satellites are concerned, the fact that I do a lot of observing at the lowest possible magnification greatly increases the number of satellites that I see. Somebody using an SCT, for example, would see many fewer.

[Jon Isaacs]

We live under the same skies as far as satellites are concerned. Actually, you should be seeing slightly more than I do, since you live a few degrees farther north. The difference is in our perceptions, not our objective realities.

 

Try lying on your back at the end of astronomical twilight and looking consciously for moving points of light. I bet you can count a dozen all at the same moment. Then keep watching, see how quickly they become invisible, and consider how many you could spot over the course of an hour.

 

As far as telescopic satellites are concerned, the fact that I do a lot of observing at the lowest possible magnification greatly increases the number of satellites that I see. Somebody using an SCT, for example, would see many fewer.

 

I see a lot of satellites. I gather that there's fewer at 33 degrees latitude than at 45 degrees.

 

But it doesn't seem to me  like they're normally bright enough to significantly affect my night vision.

 

Jon