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Dimensions of SCT collimation screws

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#1 Clouzot

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 10:18 AM

Hi SCT lovers, does a table exists that would list the dimensions (length, diameter, threads) of collimation screws for the various SCT out there?

 

I have this (fairly recent, 2018) C9.25 Fastar as well as a quite older C6-XLT sitting in my remote cabin, and while I'm in town I wanted to buy replacement screws (with hexagonal heads for instance, instead of the flimsy Philips heads that inevitably get damaged as time passes).

 

I heard scary tales about variability, some screws being metric, some others not. I just hope Celestron went metric at some point because in the EU, sourcing imperial-sized screws will be like chasing shadows.

 

(if no such table exists, I'll do my part and report here what I find)

 

Thanks!



#2 RAKing

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 10:31 AM

I don't know about the C6, but my C8 and C925 OTAs have all used M3x12 screws.  I have owned a couple of each size over the past ten years and had no trouble swapping out the collimation screws with stainless metric allen head screws.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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#3 MarMax

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 10:36 AM

The original screws for my 2014 CPC 1100 were M3 (0.5mm thread pitch) x 11.5mm.

 

As stated above, 12mm length works fine. I use the wingnut style screws on mine.


Edited by MarMax, 24 September 2021 - 10:37 AM.

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#4 markb

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 11:56 AM

Buy Bobs Knobs. Keeping them very tight is said to help shifting, but I've never had an issue on my SCTs. If I did, I'd go to stainless washers before giving up, but I haven't had problems.

 

They list many threads/pitches on their site.

 

Or just remove one and match the thread and pitch at a decent hardware store, then use that to get the head type you want. 

 

AFAIK Celestron used metric and SAE in varying lengths pitches and diameters.

 

I've heard complaints on soft heads on factory screws but even my Amazon sourced SS button heads I use on the tubes hold high torque.

 

If I was buying for collimation screws I would likely buy Torx heads, and get a matching screwdriver type Torx driver. That should get you right in the permissible torque range.

 

I've never had one strip or fail, Allens and Phillips do and have.

 

They are widely disparaged but the only downside I've seen is lack of easy availability. Most auto parts stores and amazon make it easy (coincidentally I am about to head outside to swap parts on my mostly Torx and reverse Torx head car...not a stripped head yet)

 

My only Bobs Knobs issue was a  slightly cracked thumb head on a older used scope.


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#5 Clouzot

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 01:09 PM

@markb I’ve heard mixed opinions about Bob’s knobs, and when it comes to grip (and precision) I guess nothing beats a good old screwdriver. Plus, they’re quite difficult to source in Europe…but I’ll have a look again, maybe FlO has them

#6 markb

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 02:56 PM

Wow, I'm surprised to hear about the sourcing issue. Most of my recently bought 08 bmw x3 seems to use Torx of various formats.

 

if it helps any, try automotive supply stores. Virtually every headlight assembly I've seen has used small Torx heads.

 

Amazon.fr also has them. Ebay too, of course. I just checked amazon.fr and amazon.de for a random T-10 Torx and they came up.

 

I source virtually all of my small machine screws on amazon or ebay, China is the ultimate or direct source. I usually get regular hex internal (Allen in the US) heads. I never bothered with Torx screws but they are better I think. Harder to have a driver slip and sleek a coating (as happened on my intes mak).

 

The other good choice if you go hex internal / Allen is a ball-end driver. It applies a lower maximum of torque but allows the driver to tilt. Handy.

 

I seen and participated in these Bob's Knobs discussions. My take has been that getting them tight makes a difference.

 

No issues here, on several SCTs. No or little collimation shifts.

 

Since I also have moderate SCT restoration experience, I think part may come from wide tolerances in secondary holder to core to perforation fit. I used layers of.005" / .1mm UHMW tape to shim the perforation diameter to keep the heavy C-1 secondary assembly from shifting during slews. Sorbothane or similar gaskets can also 'lock' secondaries in place. Any thin safe rubber would work.

 

I collimate or check collimation in daylight with artificial stars and rarely take more than a tweak at night, and collimation holds. Easier in daylight, by far.

 

But tightness on the Bob's is said to help, and I wonder if switching to stainless steel washers from the Bob's nylon wouldn't help some folks.

 

Dark Skies


Edited by markb, 24 September 2021 - 02:57 PM.


#7 Clouzot

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 04:07 PM

The sourcing issue was more with Bob’s knobs themselves, really. I think I can find M3 screws with a Torx head, I saw some in our local version of Home Depot, though.
As for the sorbothane gasket, I’ve one that I bought from Starizona, because my C9 secondary holder started rotating after some time. I’m yet to install it, I confess I’m a bit frightened by the task!

#8 MarMax

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 04:13 PM

The sourcing issue was more with Bob’s knobs themselves, really. I think I can find M3 screws with a Torx head, I saw some in our local version of Home Depot, though.
As for the sorbothane gasket, I’ve one that I bought from Starizona, because my C9 secondary holder started rotating after some time. I’m yet to install it, I confess I’m a bit frightened by the task!

Whatever you do, don't go to a Torx or Allen head. Please see this thread for the reason.

 

I again recommend the wingnuts if you are not able to find Bob's Knobs.


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#9 Clouzot

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 04:56 PM

Whatever you do, don't go to a Torx or Allen head. Please see this thread for the reason.

 

I again recommend the wingnuts if you are not able to find Bob's Knobs.

Now that trefoil figure really looks scary! grin.gif

I understand Torx heads are a no go because one can apply too much torque, but then why would wingnuts be any better in this regard? (I'm not disputing that, but naively asking: you guys have much more experience than I do).



#10 markb

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 05:12 PM

Allen/hex are easier to find, and absolutely fine. Torx are not needed but would be fine.

 

Interesting thead link, Marmax

 

 I had not seen a pinched astigmatism thread from collimation screws and had always wondered how likely it was.

 

That takes a really large amount of force!

 

Also interesting since I've seen repeated mention on CN that tight collimation screws reduce collimation shifts.

 

So tight, but not as tight as you can go! Use your hand / wrist muscles, not your arm, and avoid long L shape Allen/hex 'keys'/wrenches.

 

There are also reports of stripped secondary support pick threads, and snapped collimation screws so some folks go go as tight as they can, I would think, causing stripped heads.

 

DONT 'put your arm into it' .

 

The screw head design should not be viewed as your 'torque limiting device', so I'll stick to at least Allen/internal hex. I'll take Torx too, I know my tools won't pop out by accident.

 

I realize most folks have no tool experience, but they have to try to use common sense.

 

Not using T head or long L wrench tools is a very good way to avoid damage.

 

A 75mm or 100mm L hex/Allen wrench can really exert a lot of torque.

 

Many or most SCTs come with Allen head adjusters AFAIK these days.

 

Phillips were deadly from the standpoint of stripping heads or 'oops, there goes the collector coating' bounce out of the screw head onto the plate accident. I've stripped enough soft Phillips heads. One issue is there are several slightly different head designs and matches are often poor. Once I found and bought Phillips patent/trademark licenced screwdrivers problem were greatly reduced.

 

Screwdriver type Allen or Torx tools don't have the long (literally) lever arm of the cheap L wrench usually used. I would say always used, since few people have Allen 'screwdrivers'.

 

You can get decent torque on Allen or Torx 'screwdrivers' but the small head on the driverhandle is limiting. I can get far more torque using a L wrench.

 

I would not recommend a T head wrench if overtorquing is a concern, they can really crank it on.

 

I guess it helps that I have torque sensitivities from decades of working with my hands from mechanical watches to SUVs, but I think 'screwdriver' Allen or Torx are much less risky for most people than an L wrench.

 

As to Torx and Allen heads being dangerous due to ability to overtorque, that is really the reason they are safer- they are far less likely to pop or skip out and damage the optics.

 

So folks won't strip the fastener head before they overtighten and flex the 1/2" / 12 mm thick aluminum puck, that just means tightening to a sensible level, sometimes called 'hand/wrist' tight level, not 'elbow' or 'whole arm' tight. That description of the muscle groups involved helps some folks with automotive tightening.

 

 

Installing the Sorbothane or UHMW is somewhat drought with hazards.

 

So caution is nothing to apologies for.

 

Many recent SCTs were aligned at the factory by intentional placement of the corrector off center in the cell, with 'rotation' fine tuning to place the secondary exactly in line with the primary axis.

 

Older SCTs just centered the corrector with cork and just used the rotation of the secondary (not always goes concentric to the support pick). The relative secondary and corrector rotations were marked, but not the corrector position with one cell. edge HDs do this with grub screws 

 

So if you try installing it photograph the exact cell/corrector relationship, and follow directions on finding and restore the factory alignment marks.

 

I've has two misassembled after cleaning SCTs, one monstrously comatic (Meade put the rear cell on a bit crooked), they other just had every adjustment wrong and was unusably soft. Both are great now.

 

Wing screws if you find them might be okay, but be sensible.

 

Email Bobs Knobs to see if there is a European distributor, or if they ship direct. 

 

The product is light so I would expect that is likely. I get stuff from Europe all the time.


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#11 MarMax

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 05:21 PM

Now that trefoil figure really looks scary! grin.gif

I understand Torx heads are a no go because one can apply too much torque, but then why would wingnuts be any better in this regard? (I'm not disputing that, but naively asking: you guys have much more experience than I do).

An M3 wingnut is very small so the force you can apply with your thumb and forefinger is limited. Especially compared to an Allen wrench. Torque is force x distance.

 

Wingnut: distance = 7mm

M2.5 Allen wrench (short way) distance = 19mm

19 / 7 = 2.7

For the same force applied to each the torque is about 3x for the Allen.

 

In the end it's what works best for you. I did not like the factory Phillips, I tried Bob's Knobs and went to wingnuts. All things considered, the Bob's Knobs are probably the best for controlling over-tightening. I can put a bit more tightening on the wingnut than I could with Bob's Knobs. But when it's cold outside I can feel the wingnut better.

 

Needing to have a tool (Allen, Torx or screwdriver) in my hand in the dark over the corrector is not something I'll be doing any more.


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#12 RAKing

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 05:33 PM

I use an 2.5mm allen head screwdriver, not an "L" wrench, and have never had any problems with my allen head screws.  In fact, the screwdriver will remain in place while I check the view and I can reach around the smaller scope (C8) and turn the screw while I am viewing.

 

Bob's Knobs are too difficult to get tight enough to hold collimation for me.  Sorry, YMMV, but I'll stick with my stainless allen head screws.

 

Ron


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#13 Clouzot

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 05:48 PM


 

Needing to have a tool (Allen, Torx or screwdriver) in my hand in the dark over the corrector is not something I'll be doing any more.

Gotcha on the Allen/Torx issue, it's easy to overtighten those things as the grip is really good (that's what Torx was designed for, I presume...hence the name). But as long as the screws are not gorilla tight, I should be fine, right?

 

However, what you wrote above may carry the day: while Fastar secondary housings are less prone to user error (with recessed screws, it'd be really difficult for me to slip and damage the Schmidt plate), I definitely like the idea of a no tool solution. I wish I were allowed to travel again to the US, because the lead time in here looks like 4-5 weeks for Bob's knobs (factor in the shipping from the reseller, the mandatory lost parcel, and I'll get them in 2022).



#14 markb

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 07:21 PM

Remember, the strength of the bolt or screw head should NEVER work as a torque limiter. Even Phillips heads have been made crazy tight.

 

Avoid Gorilla Tight. And Monkey Tight. Just what a human hand and wrist deliver, but still be careful. And avoid L wrenches.

 

Torx were not made for high torque necessarily, but to let assembly line workers tighten fasteners with little risk of damage, as I understand it. They also may have facilitated preloading the tool with fasteners.

 

As a convienient example, I just swapped in a new transfer case motor with 4 badly placed external Torx bolts (T10 or 15). With regular hex heads I had a decent chance of stripping one head at least. With Allen heads, it would have been risky, since I know from experience that the wrench tip may be at an angle or not deep enough, bang, stripped socket.

 

There was virtually no risk with the Torx, despite no clearance and an angle away from me. 

 

Note the applied torque to the fasteners was unchanged from any other socket type. But I knew there would be no stripped heads since the fit is secure.

 

Torx are fine, and Allen/internal hex are fine, as long as L wrenches, T head wrenches and the like are avoided (or used  by someone used to torque 'feel'.

 

Torx, and to a lesser extent Allen mainly help keep the tool in place and prevent skipping out.

 

RAKing is not the only person to let the tool fit keep it in place as one moves back and forth, even working as viewing (not recommended for everybody, but doable with practice) but it is possible with the screwdriver style.

 

RAKing mentions SS heads, that is usually what what I've used to date. They are harder and don't easily strip. 

 

I forgot with a Fastar you lose the use of the beauty cover with Bob's Knobs or thumbscrews (if you can find them), but no tools is a big plus. I think the thumbscrews will be torque limited enough as MarMax said. Certainly easier to tighten than BK.

 

I collimate primarily in daytime, Hubble Optic artificial star or a chromed ball bearing in the Sun or illuminated by a green laser pointer, making the diffraction circles of a barely defocused Poisson Spot  concentric (works right down to not so great seeing). If night stability allows (not my house!) I tweak the Airy in focus pattern on a Polaris brightness star.

 

Daytime avoids scope damage even with poor technique. I do not like using hardened tools next to optics at night but that's just me.

 

Artificial star distance in not critical as it is with Suiter testing.

 

If ccollimation is way off due to whatever, usually disassembly etc, i start with crude with the Robin Casady Daytime (concentric reflections from the front, just Google), moderate with a Duncan or Tribhatinov (search CN, Duncan's can be cut out of cardboard and are essentially free), 

 

I long ago abandoned the secondary shadow method. Useless for me.


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#15 Clouzot

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 06:40 AM

Again huge thanks to you all for your valuable experience, hints and tips, I appreciate you took time to answer a question that must have been already beaten to death: I finally stumbled upon this thread https://www.cloudyni...or-c6-and-c8-a/ so I though it was good to report here as well.

 

The fact is that this table already exists on Celestron's website, albeit only for the current product line: https://www.celestro...n-optical-tubes

 

Surprisingly, it seems the very same screws are used for both the C6 and the Fastar C9.25: M3x0.5x10mm. 2mm shorter than what you guys reported, so I'll buy both lengths: 10 and 12mm

Notably, the C8 uses shorter screws for some reason.


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#16 RAKing

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 09:57 AM

Surprisingly, it seems the very same screws are used for both the C6 and the Fastar C9.25: M3x0.5x10mm. 2mm shorter than what you guys reported, so I'll buy both lengths: 10 and 12mm

Notably, the C8 uses shorter screws for some reason.

 

Dang!  You (and Celestron) are correct.  I finally did the swap with my new C8 last night.  I had prepped a trio of M3x12 screws and was all set to go.  But when I popped off the first screw, it was only 8mm long. tongue2.gif

 

So I ran inside and grabbed the correct length for me, which is 10mm because I also use a 2mm stainless washer under the screws.  My life in the aviation world taught me to always put washers under the piece you are turning, either the screw or the nut.  After that, it was a simple R&R deal: remove stock screw, replace with stainless screw, check collimation, and repeat.

 

My new C8 has the Fastar secondary and the new screws look and work very well.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron

 

C8-A 092621.JPG


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#17 Clouzot

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Posted 27 September 2021 - 01:30 PM

Ron, this looks neat and tidy. My own C9 Fastar holder looks a bit different (it has that tri-lobe shape) but apparently Celestron kept the same screw sizes: 10mm for me.

 

I like the idea of the washers (I'm myself not so comfortable with screws directly threaded on bare metal surfaces, be them anodized or not).


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#18 Wallyl

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Posted 04 June 2022 - 04:40 PM

$5.99 for a set of three on E-Bay..these have plastic knurled knobs...

 

size: M3 (0.5mm thread pitch) x 12.0 mm.

 

https://www.ebay.com...McaAr-bEALw_wcB




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