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Newt mirror cells: point or planar contact?

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#1 SchrödingersCat

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 05:20 AM

I know that the consensus favors a disc used for a contact point. However lets ignore that for the time being. I ask you all, what is the best geometry for pad design, given the single constraint that nylon or teflon is used for the material? I posit that virtually any design using flat pads, once fabricated will yield contact points varying wildly from the original design. So that is to say, even if PLOP is applied correctly and the cell is fabricated with precision, the contact pints will wind up being off by as much as the radius of the individual pads. Why? It is exceedingly difficult to manufacture three planes with anything approaching a true coplanar state.

 

What say you?



#2 EricR

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:31 AM

3 points define a plane so I'm sure all would agree that true point supports are technically ideal if following PLOP (well, as close to a point as you can get without digging into the back of the mirror and/or causing an adhesive/stuck situation,,, never studied glass strength at a point,,, or compression of different support materials at a point). I've seen some posts with spherical contact points which seems like a good solution. (Personally, I still use small, round, dense, disc pads but, as you say, that's not the best technical solution).

 

And if your triangles are flat and reasonably rigid anyway, well...


Edited by EricR, 08 December 2014 - 04:20 PM.


#3 MitchAlsup

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 10:00 AM

I know that the consensus favors a disc used for a contact point. However lets ignore that for the time being. I ask you all, what is the best geometry for pad design, given the single constraint that nylon or teflon is used for the material? <snip> It is exceedingly difficult to manufacture three planes with anything approaching a true coplanar state.

 

PLOP does its FEM magic using points.

 

Points can be bad if the mirror has to be transported over bad roads; so everyone uses pads, instead.

 

But the best "shape" for a pad is one that does not limit the radial motions of the mirror--that is whatever shape or area the pad contains, an important and under stressed topic is that the pad should have low friction, allowing the mirror to move laterally. Thus, Teflon® is preferred over dense felt pads, because it lets the mirror relieve thermal stress. 



#4 Pinbout

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:58 AM

 

It is exceedingly difficult to manufacture three planes with anything approaching a true coplanar state.

 

I believe I remember Don Clemente sanding his compliant supports with a flat to make them all coplanar.



#5 EricR

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 01:54 PM

Points can be bad if the mirror has to be transported over bad roads...

Yeah, that's one of the main reasons for me.

 

Lots of trade-offs,,, but then again, I guess accepting that it would be realistically impossible to create a perfectly-formed (flat), close to friction-free, full surface support of the back of the mirror without causing excessive thermal issues (not to mention a bunch of other “stuff”) so deciding to introduce stresses at specific points calculated by PLOP was a pretty big trade-off in of itself.



#6 mark cowan

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:46 PM

I know that the consensus favors a disc used for a contact point. However lets ignore that for the time being. I ask you all, what is the best geometry for pad design, given the single constraint that nylon or teflon is used for the material? I posit that virtually any design using flat pads, once fabricated will yield contact points varying wildly from the original design. So that is to say, even if PLOP is applied correctly and the cell is fabricated with precision, the contact pints will wind up being off by as much as the radius of the individual pads. Why? It is exceedingly difficult to manufacture three planes with anything approaching a true coplanar state.

 

What say you?

 

You're overthinking it.  A slightly compliant pad (felt, teflon, even nylon) will shape itself to the small contact area quite well.  And you only NEED a small contact area.

 

Best,

Mark

 

PS I should have added I'm listing those materials from least preferred to best.  I use nylon supports.


Edited by mark cowan, 08 December 2014 - 06:05 PM.


#7 Starman1

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 03:00 PM

I know that the consensus favors a disc used for a contact point. However lets ignore that for the time being. I ask you all, what is the best geometry for pad design, given the single constraint that nylon or teflon is used for the material? I posit that virtually any design using flat pads, once fabricated will yield contact points varying wildly from the original design. So that is to say, even if PLOP is applied correctly and the cell is fabricated with precision, the contact pints will wind up being off by as much as the radius of the individual pads. Why? It is exceedingly difficult to manufacture three planes with anything approaching a true coplanar state.

 

What say you?

You're right in specific, so the contact points should either be a) small, so the error is position is also tiny, or b) floating, so the plane of the pad automatically alligns with the plane

of the back surface of the mirror.

Most people use a more compliant material, like cork or felt, as the pad material because the mirror is transported in the cell.  This could result in the inaccuracies you mention.

However, though PLOP doesn't allow you to move the points slightly, it's obvious that having the pressure points vary from the PLOP positions by a tiny amount has two issues:

1) the flexure as seen in the graphical representation would not longer be completely symmetrical

2) it's possible that some points on the mirror might deviate a couple nanometers more than the pure PLOP design.

 

Is that significant?  Well, not when a very very good mirror yielding 1/10 wave error on the wavefront means a deviation of 55 nanometers (and that could be +/-)!  Adding even 5 nanometers to that is insignificant. There is a much larger difference in surface errors by changing from 3 to 6 to 9 to 18 points of support than there is in having the points be slightly in error as to their positions.

As Mark says: you're over-thinking it. 



#8 Mike Lockwood

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 03:01 PM

What matters the most for rear mirror support is having low friction.  Point support has high friction and high stress.  Pads are better.

 

Felt pads have substantially higher friction than plastics, so does cork.  Teflon cold flows and is "sticker" after some time.

 

Therefore, Nylon or Delrin are best.  You can sand each triangle against something flat to get all of the point planar, as someone else mentioned.  This is what I do.

 

Coincidentally I am writing an article about mirror support, and I just covered some of this.


Edited by Mike Lockwood, 08 December 2014 - 03:02 PM.


#9 Mark Hatch

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 12:41 AM

Anybody using nylon machine screws for contact points? I have a mill with a digital read out, so with the data from plop can get pretty accurate locations for the "ideal point". Round head nylon machine screws seem to provide more accurate support than traditional cork/felt pads. But I have no empirical experience here. The upscale mirror cells talk about spherical  bearings - but I would be worried about bouncy roads.

 

Mark



#10 Starman1

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:33 AM

Anybody using nylon machine screws for contact points? I have a mill with a digital read out, so with the data from plop can get pretty accurate locations for the "ideal point". Round head nylon machine screws seem to provide more accurate support than traditional cork/felt pads. But I have no empirical experience here. The upscale mirror cells talk about spherical  bearings - but I would be worried about bouncy roads.

 

Mark

Depends on the number of points.

My older mirror was 26lbs.  With 3 screws under it, that would be almost 9 lbs on each screw.

My current mirror is 11 lbs and has 18 points of support, i.e. 0.61 lbs per support point.

I'd be afraid of chips in the first case, but probably not the latter.

although I'd only even think about bearings as supports if the scope was never transported with the mirror in its cell.



#11 Mark Hatch

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 02:37 AM

Hmmm.... GSO 16" weighs in at just under 29 pounds... So with 18 pt cell we are talking ~1.6 pounds per point. Definitely more than your light weight .61 pounds per point.

 

Will be watching this thread to see the final consensus. Perfect timing for me!

 

Mark



#12 Pinbout

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 05:37 AM

 

The upscale mirror cells talk about spherical  bearings - but I would be worried about bouncy roads.

 

they're used in the teeter totters not the support pads.

 

but if everything is compliant it moves more immediately without the stick/slip motion of bearings.

 

gallery_106859_3508_287186.jpg


Edited by Pinbout, 09 December 2014 - 05:39 AM.


#13 MitchAlsup

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 09:33 AM

The upscale mirror cells talk about spherical  bearings - but I would be worried about bouncy roads.

 

I used 4 spherical bearings on each lower (big) triangle on my 27-point cell for a 20" x 2" mirror. This thing has been up (and back down) the mountain at Prude Ranch--there are not many roads rougher that are passable with less than 4-wheel drive. It has been doing this for 15 years. So, if you use the right spherical bearings:: Its not a problem.



#14 mark cowan

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 06:09 PM

You're not going to chip glass with anything less than an actual sharp point.  Nylon screw heads should work fine, it's what I'm using.  Easy to locate the support points exactly that way, and a rounded surface with some compressibility is hard to beat for the price.

 

You want to find out, mount your proposed support point on a hammer face and pound on some glass until you're satisfied how tough it is.  Corning used to have a demo they did of the strength of pyrex where they used a glass hammer to drive nails. :lol:

 

Best,

Mark



#15 Pinbout

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 06:20 PM

 

Corning used to have a demo they did of the strength of pyrex where they used a glass hammer to drive nails. :lol:

 

I've read John Dobson did that with the mirrors he was working with when the bench would come loose.

 

I like nylon cap heads as supports.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=3JPZfmk6vB0



#16 Howie Glatter

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:21 PM

"Corning used to have a demo they did of the strength of pyrex where they used a glass hammer to drive nails. :lol:"

"I've read John Dobson did that . ."

 

 In 1997 at Stellafane, I watched and shot video of John doing a mirror grinding demonstration, where he placed the blank on a wooden bench and drove three nails around its perimeter to loosely secure it for grinding. He asked if anyone had a hammer, and when there was no response, he used the blank as his hammer, striking the nails squarely on their heads with the flat surface of the blank. There was shock and gasps all around, but I saw by the hint of a suppressed smile on his face that he knew what he was doing, and was enjoying blowing people's minds.  What a guy !



#17 SchrödingersCat

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 09:14 AM

Thank you all for your input. I have already implemented the point method with nylon acorn nuts. My mirror back is polished optically flat so perhaps the increased friction of point contact will be reduced?

 

BTW  Mike your article "Four Lessons" is a great boon to all interested in understanding fine newtonian optics.



#18 Mike Lockwood

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 12:26 PM

Cat,

 

It is also best to minimize the height of all triangles, support levers, and contact points, so full-height acorn nuts may be a bit tall depending on their size.

 

Thank you - I'm glad you found and enjoyed the article (and read all of it - it just kept growing).  For those who are interested, there is a link to it on my home page, which is linked from my signature.



#19 dave brock

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 10:29 PM

Has anyone here ever actually had an optical problem that was fixed by changing their support pads from felt, cork etc. to a nylon point?

 

Dave



#20 SchrödingersCat

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 09:02 AM

What type of image defects should I look for? Astigmatism at low altitudes?



#21 Starman1

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 11:52 AM

What type of image defects should I look for? Astigmatism at low altitudes?

That would be one.



#22 Mike Lockwood

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 03:04 PM

Has anyone here ever actually had an optical problem that was fixed by changing their support pads from felt, cork etc. to a nylon point?

 

Dave

 

The friction of the points is most important when the edge supports can give a little.  For example, slings stretch.  If the telescope is pointed low, then high and there is high friction between the mirror and support points, then extra tension remains in the sling, pushing the mirror against the stiction/friction of the support points even when it is pointed high.  This is not good.

 

The lower the friction of the points, the less sling effects will show up when the telescope is pointed low, then pointed higher.

 

Low friction for edge supports is also quite important.



#23 SchrödingersCat

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 03:53 PM

Does anyone sell nylon pads specifically for mirror support?



#24 Pinbout

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 04:11 PM

aurora precisions sells cell parts.

 

http://aurorap.com/p... cell parts.htm

 

they use 3/4" dia x .19" high polyethylene pads



#25 SchrödingersCat

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 06:52 PM

Thanks for the link Danny. Unfortunately they seem spherical in shape...




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