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I'd like to upgrade from the STF-8300M, but I have questions related to image circles and cooling

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#26 Narrowbandwidth

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:39 AM

 

1. Flatteners normally don't change the focal length so the light will actually be brighter toward the edges since it will be better focused.

 

Hrmm... are you suggesting that the smaller flattener simply "crops" what isn't in the circle, rather than projecting the same photons onto a smaller circle?

 

If you look at this page: http://www.takahashi...cifications.php

 

You see the TOA-FL35 flattener (what I have now) produces a 40mm circle, while the TOA-FL67 flattener produces a 90mm circle.

 

If I swap out the TOA-FL35 I have now for the TOA-FL67... will my resulting FOV change if I keep the rest of my setup the same?

 

 

So... I think to answer my own question it's that the field of view would change. I guess I basically am just wasting the potential of my scope if it can in theory produce a 90mm imaging circle



#27 Narrowbandwidth

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 05:58 AM

It looks like overscan calibration, when done properly through PixInsight, does possibly fix this isue.

 

I did 5 40 minute subs, and after doing overscan calibration, the median ADU was between 31 and 33, and didn't seem to drift. I'll gather more darks in the next few days to make sure, but this looks like that is the solution.

 

The interesting thing about this though is that the SBIG drivers nowadays actually have an option for automatically doing this calibration. By default this is enabled in the driver settings... so I wonder if that either doesn't work or if it incorrectly is showing as on when it isn't. I'll do some testing to sort that out.



#28 mrstaypuft

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:29 AM

Wow, I'm happy I was pointed to this topic and can add some info.  I’ve experienced the issue of changing dark/bias frame ADU on my STF-8300M.  I first noticed when bias subtraction failed:  My master bias ADU (1060) was greater than the ADU of my 20’ Ha subs (920).  No small difference!

 

I had a suspicion that ambient temperature was a possible factor.  My bias frames are taken indoors, and it recently got pretty cold outside (about 3C during the Ha frames mentioned above); I'd never seen a problem previously, and did other "warmer ambient" Ha work in August and September without issue.  I wonder if the temperature of the non-temperature-controlled analog circuits causes different read noise.  This might explain the drifting pedestal level over the course of the night mentioned in the OP.

 

Having taken my bias library in August (midwest summer) when indoor ambient was about 24C, I reshot the library in November with an indoor ambient of about 20C.  The bias master ADU went from 1060 in the August library to 960 in the recent run.  (I maintain a -10C setpoint for all frames, calibration or otherwise.)  Note that this is still a higher ADU than my 20' Ha frames.

 

I performed another test recently to bear this out further: 0.1s dark frames were taken using CCDOps over a short period of time while maintaining a sensor temperature close to room temp (at 20C):

 

  • 12:46pm: Initial hookup, and CCDOps reports a sensor temp of 20.4C. With cooling disabled, an immediate 0.1s frame shows an ADU of 835.
  • 12:47pm: Cooling enabled with a setpoint of 20C. I wait for temperature to stabilize.
  • 12:51pm: 0.1s frame shows ADU of 903
  • 12:56pm: 0.1s frame shows ADU of 912
  • 12:59pm: 0.1s frame shows ADU of 915
  • 1:19pm: 0.1s frame shows ADU of 923

It might also be worth noting that 0.1s dark frames have a higher ADU than longer dark frames (say 10s), even when taken back-to-back.  I see this consistently.  For example, my 10s frames are about 40 ADU counts higher than the 0.1s frames, always.

 

I completely agree that overscan correction should address all of this.  The SBIG driver supports up to 200 rows/columns (added to the right and bottom of the frame), enabled through the "Driver Checker" program.  Unfortunately, I use SGP and there is not "overscan awareness," so all centering functions are offset by the size of the overscan regions since these regions are included in the image download (... and that centering offset is in the opposite direction after a meridian flip). As you could imagine, this is pretty rough to deal with, so until this feature is supported (I've already submitted a request with Main Sequence), I'll need to wait on incorporating this into my field work.

 

I have access to an incubator, and am planning on running some tests across different ambient temps to nail down any possible correlation.  I plan to run frames both with and without overscan enabled to witness the phenomenon and hopefully see it resolved with overscan correction.

 

The SBIG driver also has an "Auto Bias Level Correction" feature that Narrowbandwidth referred to.  I likewise haven't found that this has any effect on any of the above behavior, and there is forum chatter elsewhere indicating this as well.  However, I'll probably include this knob when I run against the incubator and prove any effect one way or another.

 

I had added to a topic in the SBIG forums on this several weeks ago, but never received any feedback.  You'd hope the "Auto Bias Level Correction" would seamlessly address this phenomenon; maybe there's a driver issue to address on their part.

 

Glad to know others have seen this issue.  I thought I was going nuts.


Edited by mrstaypuft, 02 December 2015 - 12:04 PM.


#29 yawg

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:58 PM

I thought I was going nuts.

 

Well you are, but not because of this.  =p

 

Seems like you all got it figured out.  Well done boys.



#30 jfrech14

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 06:21 PM

 

 

1. Flatteners normally don't change the focal length so the light will actually be brighter toward the edges since it will be better focused.

 

Hrmm... are you suggesting that the smaller flattener simply "crops" what isn't in the circle, rather than projecting the same photons onto a smaller circle?

 

If you look at this page: http://www.takahashi...cifications.php

 

You see the TOA-FL35 flattener (what I have now) produces a 40mm circle, while the TOA-FL67 flattener produces a 90mm circle.

 

If I swap out the TOA-FL35 I have now for the TOA-FL67... will my resulting FOV change if I keep the rest of my setup the same?

 

 

So... I think to answer my own question it's that the field of view would change. I guess I basically am just wasting the potential of my scope if it can in theory produce a 90mm imaging circle

 

They are both flatteners, right? Your field of view might change but it shouldn't and if it does it will be very little or not noticeable. All it does is fix the curvature up to the new image circle. They do have reducers as well though.



#31 jfrech14

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 06:23 PM

By brighter at the edges he means that the aberrations you see due to curvature are fixed which cause a proper star shape and your signal will be higher.



#32 Jeff2011

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:38 PM

I checked some more darks from my recent library and the results were not as dramatic but the decrease is still there.  I then went back and checked some of my older darks before I updated my camera firmware and drivers last month and the variance was very small, like 6 to 8 ADU.  Seems like the new firmware/drivers are the culprit.  mrstaypuft thanks for heads up on overscan and SGP.  Perhaps SBIG will provide fix in the near future.

 

other_newer_darks_median_check.JPG old_darks_median_check.JPG



#33 Narrowbandwidth

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:04 AM

 I then went back and checked some of my older darks before I updated my camera firmware and drivers last month and the variance was very small, like 6 to 8 ADU.  Seems like the new firmware/drivers are the culprit.

 

 

I came to the same conclusion. I updated my firmware several months ago and the issue started showing up at that point. I suspect what actually happened was the driver always did calibration using the overscanned region, and they simply broke that functionality when trying to add the option to enable or disable it (which was not a feature forever).



#34 Jeff2011

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:39 AM

I just updated my firmware and drivers again.  Initial tests indicate the issue has gone away.



#35 mrstaypuft

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 10:23 AM

I just updated my firmware and drivers again.  Initial tests indicate the issue has gone away.

 

Well I'll be... Looks like camera firmware 2.48 is now the latest, and there's a driver update (sbigudrv) available for my machine as well.

 

As a general reminder for anyone anxious to try this out (like myself), SBIG strongly recommends updating the "Driver Checker" program before issuing any driver or firmware updates.

 

Also appears there's a possible hiccup with a locked file when updating from driver 4.88 build 9 to build 11 (the latest).  See this post on SBIG is you have trouble.

 

I hope to see the same results.  I'd love to see the changelog for either... hopefully this is buried in the install somewhere.

 

Thanks for the heads up Jeff!



#36 Jeff2011

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:11 PM

I am just glad that Narrowbandwidth brought this to my attention.  I don't remember reading anything in the release notes about fixing this, but then not all bug fixes are always disclosed.  Programmers tend to be embarrassed about bugs so they don't like publicizing them.   I still have a slightly older version of Driver Checker and did not have an issue updating the firmware and drivers.



#37 mrstaypuft

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:51 PM

Jeff, do you recall if you have the "Auto Bias Level Correction" enabled through the driver?  I'm presuming this is the feature that was "fixed."

 

Programmers tend to be embarrassed about bugs so they don't like publicizing them.

 

Ha, isn't that's the truth!

 

I am just glad that Narrowbandwidth brought this to my attention.

 

Yes, without a doubt!  I was pretty agitated a month ago when I first started digging into it.  Was very relieved to find this topic and learn it may be resolved so that we can once again get expected behavior from such a nice camera.



#38 Jeff2011

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:34 PM

Jeff, do you recall if you have the "Auto Bias Level Correction" enabled through the driver?  I'm presuming this is the feature that was "fixed."

 

I left that setting alone. I verified that it was checked before I did the update, but I don't remember if I looked at it after the update.  My test was 9 five minute darks at -10C.



#39 gezak22

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 09:31 PM

I came to the same conclusion. I updated my firmware several months ago and the issue started showing up at that point. I suspect what actually happened was the driver always did calibration using the overscanned region, and they simply broke that functionality when trying to add the option to enable or disable it (which was not a feature forever).

But how did the driver do the calibration? Unless the user spcifically points to a previous frame, how would a new frame be calibrated?

 

I'll give the new drivers a shot too. Temperatures are cold enough (and the weather poor enough) to shoot some good dark frames anyway.

 

Edit: And does anybody know if "Auto bias level correction" should be checked? Why (not)?


Edited by gezak22, 03 December 2015 - 09:39 PM.


#40 mrstaypuft

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:05 PM

Edit: And does anybody know if "Auto bias level correction" should be checked? Why (not)?

 

I'm presuming that's the setting which is "fixed" in the most recent update, and when enabled should automatically adjust the frames and provide an even/expected pedestal throughout frames and throughout the night.  That's my understanding, anyway.

 

I was planning on checking this tonight first hand, but I bricked my camera when updating it  :bawling:   Followed the directions exactly and was given a "TX Timeout" error at which point the process aborted on its own.  I knew it was bad news when it self destructed... Gah.

 

Anyway, it'll be a week or 2 before I can verify for myself, but yeah, I think you probably want it checked.



#41 Jeff2011

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:25 PM

Ouch.  That thought crossed my mind when I was updating mine.  That is why I am hesitant to update the firmware.  A power glitch during the update can also brick it.  I hope they can turn it around quickly for you.



#42 gezak22

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:37 AM

I was planning on checking this tonight first hand, but I bricked my camera when updating it  :bawling:   Followed the directions exactly and was given a "TX Timeout" error at which point the process aborted on its own.  I knew it was bad news when it self destructed... Gah.

 

Anyway, it'll be a week or 2 before I can verify for myself, but yeah, I think you probably want it checked.

 

I've made it a rule to not upgrade the firmware close to the weekend because of issues in the past. Today I too received the TX timeout error. Fortunately, I drive past the SBIG office on my daily commute (the main reason I bought the ccd from SBIG) so I should have the camera back before 10am tomorrow.

 

I don't understand how this error cannot be dealt with by the user or be solved permanently by SBIG.



#43 Narrowbandwidth

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 05:57 AM

 

Edit: And does anybody know if "Auto bias level correction" should be checked? Why (not)?

 

I'm presuming that's the setting which is "fixed" in the most recent update, and when enabled should automatically adjust the frames and provide an even/expected pedestal throughout frames and throughout the night.  That's my understanding, anyway.

 

I was planning on checking this tonight first hand, but I bricked my camera when updating it  :bawling:   Followed the directions exactly and was given a "TX Timeout" error at which point the process aborted on its own.  I knew it was bad news when it self destructed... Gah.

 

Anyway, it'll be a week or 2 before I can verify for myself, but yeah, I think you probably want it checked.

 

 

Oh ****... that sucks. I have had no problem with doing updates to my camera. I've done the firmware update on it at least a few times.

 

I've actually kept the auto calibration off and left overscanning on, as I prefer having that extra data in the image itself for later reference.



#44 mrstaypuft

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:53 AM

Oh ****... that sucks. I have had no problem with doing updates to my camera. I've done the firmware update on it at least a few times.

 

Yup, I think I've updated 2 previous times without any problems.  I updated the "DriverChecker" program this time before doing any updates per SBIG's recommendation... May or may not have had something to do with it.  The reason I went with SBIG was that I heard good things about their support, and to their credit, they've been very responsive and should be able to turn it around quickly.

 

I've actually kept the auto calibration off and left overscanning on, as I prefer having that extra data in the image itself for later reference.

 

Yeah, I'd prefer to do this myself as well.  Once SGP adds support for excluding these regions in centering and auto-focus frames, I'll likely go this route.

 

In any case, once the camera is back in my hands, I'll post a comparison of overscan vs. auto-correction with the new firmware.



#45 gezak22

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 12:39 PM

I ran a test over night. In the first half of the night I was shooting 8min darks at -13 C with 'autio bias level correction' checked. I then closed CCDOps (CCD was left running though) unchecked 'autio bias level correction' and continued. I still see a trail in the first ten frames. The CCD was left to cool for 10 minutes before starting exposures. Is it possible that the hump at the beginning is caused by another object close to the CCD still cooling down?

 

I used the latest drivers/firmware. Overscan correction was off.

Attached Thumbnails

  • test.png

Edited by gezak22, 05 December 2015 - 12:56 PM.


#46 mrstaypuft

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 02:39 PM

That's interesting, hmm.  Your guess is as good as mine, but certainly that drift on your first 8 or so frames is exactly as I saw in my previous tests on the 2.47 firmware and an earlier version of the USB driver.  (Your actual ADU levels are quite similar too.)

 

I think you said SBIG was going to restore the firmware for you.  Can you confirm that it currently has 2.48 on it?

 

If this drift is still present on the latest, I'll more than likely go the way of narrowbandwidth on this and just enable a subset of the overscan region and calibrate it out on my own.  I'm done upgrading the firmware after my most recent experience  :lol:



#47 gezak22

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 04:40 PM

That's interesting, hmm.  Your guess is as good as mine, but certainly that drift on your first 8 or so frames is exactly as I saw in my previous tests on the 2.47 firmware and an earlier version of the USB driver.  (Your actual ADU levels are quite similar too.)

 

I think you said SBIG was going to restore the firmware for you.  Can you confirm that it currently has 2.48 on it?

 

If this drift is still present on the latest, I'll more than likely go the way of narrowbandwidth on this and just enable a subset of the overscan region and calibrate it out on my own.  I'm done upgrading the firmware after my most recent experience  :lol:

Yes, 2.48 firmware and 4.90 Build1 driver.

 

I think I too will attempt manual calibration using overscan. Here's the flow I was thinking of using in CCDStack:

Collect darks, normalize them using overscan region, stack to create MasterDark.

Collect flat-darks, normalize them using overscan region, stack to create MasterFlatDark.

Collect flats, normalize them to MasterFlatDark using overscan region, stack to create MasterFlat, subtract MasterFlatDark to create FinalMasterFlat.

Collect lights, normalize to master dark using overscan region, save NewLights.

 

Calibrate NewLights using MasterDark and FinalMasterFlat, continue processing as usual.



#48 gezak22

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:03 PM

I think I too will attempt manual calibration using overscan. Here's the flow I was thinking of using in CCDStack:

Collect darks, normalize them using overscan region, stack to create MasterDark.

Collect flat-darks, normalize them using overscan region, stack to create MasterFlatDark.

Collect flats, normalize them to MasterFlatDark using overscan region, stack to create MasterFlat, subtract MasterFlatDark to create FinalMasterFlat.

Collect lights, normalize to master dark using overscan region, save NewLights.

 

Calibrate NewLights using MasterDark and FinalMasterFlat, continue processing as usual.

 

Alright, I talked with Stan Moore about this. According to him, doing this procedure for the flats is a waste of time since the drift is small when compared to the total flux of the flat. Even for lights/darks this is probably not required as the calibration only adds a constant offset which will be normalized out anyway (between registering and data rejecting).

 

I am not going to worry about this drift for now.



#49 mrstaypuft

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:07 PM

 

I think I too will attempt manual calibration using overscan. Here's the flow I was thinking of using in CCDStack:

Collect darks, normalize them using overscan region, stack to create MasterDark.

Collect flat-darks, normalize them using overscan region, stack to create MasterFlatDark.

Collect flats, normalize them to MasterFlatDark using overscan region, stack to create MasterFlat, subtract MasterFlatDark to create FinalMasterFlat.

Collect lights, normalize to master dark using overscan region, save NewLights.

 

Calibrate NewLights using MasterDark and FinalMasterFlat, continue processing as usual.

 

Alright, I talked with Stan Moore about this. According to him, doing this procedure for the flats is a waste of time since the drift is small when compared to the total flux of the flat. Even for lights/darks this is probably not required as the calibration only adds a constant offset which will be normalized out anyway (between registering and data rejecting).

 

I am not going to worry about this drift for now.

 

 

That's interesting, and straight from the expert!  Thanks for sharing this.  "Probably not required" is probably true for wideband light frames where the background is almost certain to increase appreciably. But I think the "probably is required" would be where this drift can cause bias overcorrection of narrowband light frames.  I buried it in a reply somewhere above, but I had 20' Ha subs that had a lower background ADU than my bias master, which is what started my own digging into it.  Overscan correction (or the driver's automatic bias level correction, if it worked) would seem necessary in this scenario.  Maybe sticking a pedestal under the bias master would be a workaround, but that feels a bit like a hack to me.

 

In any case, I completely agree that if it can be avoided (i.e. it's not causing problems), there's no reason to do it.



#50 mrstaypuft

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:11 PM

...and to piggyback on this, maybe a minimalist approach would simply be to overscan-correct the bias frames only.  That'd certainly minimize the effort, though wouldn't necessarily put the light frames on equal pedestals between each other.

 

Actually, I think this is exactly what you said was suggested by Stan   :lol:


Edited by mrstaypuft, 06 December 2015 - 01:14 PM.



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