ED120 Used With Baader T2 Prism Diagonal
#1
Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:00 PM
This diagonal had been loaned to a friend for several weeks, while he waited for his Takahashi prism to arrive. It's the first time I've tried it with the Sky-Watcher ED120.
Using magnifications from 180x to 450x on a selection of stars (incl. several doubles) showed that it's a very good fit with the ED120. The prism's correction nulls out the tiny bit of red c.a. normally visible with very high magnification at full aperture (120mm). This effect is most noticeable when looking at orangy/reddish stars.
This prism appears to be a nice match to the ED120 lens.
In fact, even slightly better than than a 2" dielectric mirror diagonal, when used at the objective's full aperture. But, it's pretty much a hair-splitting experience.
There's less of a difference in correction when varying between 110mm and 120mm, using the prism, vs. using a mirror diagonal.
The glass in the Baader prism has a higher refractive index than BK7 and is even a little greater than the Tak prism. Whereas BK7 shifts color correction quite noticeably and results in more prominent blue/violet defocus, the Baader prism has a milder effect.
If you already own a dielectric mirror diagonal, the difference in performance between it and the Baader prism likely doesn't justify switching.
Even so, the Baader diagonal compliments the ED120 lens exceptionally well.
#2
Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:00 AM
Thank you.
Ennis
#3
Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:18 AM
The Baader T2 with Zeiss prism has 35mm of clear aperture.
It's not a full 2", but is bigger than normal 1.25" prisms.
The prism housing will accept either 1.25" or 2" fitments.
Here's a website with details and European pricing.
I believe the Baader diagonals are available thru US dealers, but am not sure which one(s).
#4
Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:01 PM
#5
Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:54 PM
#6
Posted 28 July 2009 - 03:19 PM
Interesting. Do you know the Abbe number for the glasses?
#7
Posted 28 July 2009 - 08:19 PM
Great review Clive! I am interested in the baader diag. Did you get a chance to test it against the generic celestron diag that you reported worked so well with the Megrez 110?
Thanx
Clear Skies
Itz
#8
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:54 AM
>>> Baader prism has a higher refractive index than BK7 <<<
Interesting. Do you know the Abbe number for the glasses?
For BK7--
# Refractive Index nd : 1,51680 (587,6nm)
# Abbe numbers:
* ve = 63,96
* vd = 64,17
I don't know the numbers for the glass in the Zeiss Jena prism, but it certainly has a higher refractive index, because the prism achieves total internal reflection over a wider range of incident angles.
#9
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:59 AM
Hi,
Great review Clive! I am interested in the baader diag. Did you get a chance to test it against the generic celestron diag that you reported worked so well with the Megrez 110?
Thanx
Clear Skies
Itz
Hi Itz.
Thanks very much.
During my testing with the Megrez 110ED, it was discovered the the Baader prism's higher refractive index was much less effective at reducing the red error in that optic. The Megrez 110ED's lens worked best with the Celestron BK7 prism.
In the case of the S-W ED120, red error is far less than what the Megrez shows. The Baader prism's "milder" effect on color correction seems best suited to that optic.
#10
Posted 29 July 2009 - 09:39 AM
Just curious because a prism (or equally optical path length plate of glass) introduces spherical aberration in proportion to its RI and chromatic aberration in proportion to its Abbe no. These add/subtract to affect the net image quality.
#11
Posted 29 July 2009 - 09:47 AM
>>>I don't know the numbers for the glass in the Zeiss Jena prism<<<
Just curious because a prism (or equally optical path length plate of glass) introduces spherical aberration in proportion to its RI and chromatic aberration in proportion to its Abbe no. These add/subtract to affect the net image quality.
Right.
I'm curious, too.... but don't know what glass the Zeiss prism uses. Just that it has a higher RI than BK7.
#12
Posted 11 August 2009 - 11:02 PM
This works wonderfully well.
Observed a few doubles incl. Pi Aquilae.
At 172x, Pi was as clearly resolved as I've ever seen it before. Perfect Airy disks.
Moved the scope out to the front yard and had a look at Jupiter. Even at 90x, no shortage of detail was visible. The Great Pale Spot dominated Jupiter's disk. A moon (Io?) could be easily seen near the planet's limb, with it's shadow immediately adjacent. Very tiny and black. Absolutely zero spurious color.
This is truly the doublet that thinks it's a triplet.
#13
Posted 12 August 2009 - 07:27 AM
http://www.astro-for...read.php?t=8621
#14
Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:24 AM
#15
Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:16 PM
Ya never know what's gonna work best.....
Sometimes it a mirror and other times, it's a prism.
#16
Posted 13 August 2009 - 10:25 AM
Different ED refractors are corrected differently leading to color at different wavelengths.
The inclusion of additional glass tends to change this color correction.
Prism diagonals are a simple way to introduce this "additional glass".
Celestron prisms and Baader prisms utilize different glass types which affect color correction in ED scopes differently.
Is it safe to say that if your scope exhibits a tendency towards blue/violet that the BK7 based prisms would be a good place to start but if your scope is corrected more towards the red end that the Baader prism may be a better choice?
What about other sources of BK-7? I'm thinking the prisms in a binoviewer. Has anyone looked at comparative color correction with and without a binoviewer (which should provide a greater amount of BK-7 for the light path to go through)?
#17
Posted 13 August 2009 - 11:23 AM
Is it safe to say that if your scope exhibits a tendency towards blue/violet that the BK7 based prisms would be a good place to start but if your scope is corrected more towards the red end that the Baader prism may be a better choice?
Hi Mark.
I've found that if an ED scope has relatively poor correction in the red, but good correction in the blue/green, using a BK7 prism will work best. It better tames the red defocus.
Trying a Baader or Tak prism (which has higher RI glass) won't correct the red to as great a degree.
OTOH, if the ED lens has relatively good correction in the red (like the ED120 does), the Baader prism tweaks it just enough to satisfy me.
Blue/violet suffers a little, but not enough to my eye, for it to matter.
Re. bino-viewing, I won't comment on that cuz I don't have experience with binoviewers.
However, I recall some insights made by CN member "Photonovore" re. how using a bino-viewer appeared to minimize c.a. as seen in achromats. That was a few years ago. She cited some references. Might be worth digging back for more info...
#18
Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:40 PM
Since my new location has better planetary viewing (more stable skies) than I've had in a while I think I may run a few tests using my AT80ED. I hadn't used this scope for much more than a guide scope or wide field work but with better skies I might be able to make a few judgments about color correction when viewing Jupiter and the moon.
I have an older metal Celestron prism diagonal, a newer plastic bodied version, a few dielectric mirror types and a set of binoviewers with BK-7 prisms. I'll let you know the results in a few days if the weather cooperates.
#19
Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:13 AM
Looking forward to hearing your results!
#20
Posted 04 September 2009 - 09:35 AM
this is my first post, sorry...
My question: and if I will try this prism diagonal with an ED Apo triplet (a ZS 105/735)? Will be better or not than a "normal" diagonal, assuming it has a not perfect correction similar to 120 ED?
#21
Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:50 AM
Welcome to Cloudy Nights!
Sorry, but I can't offer an opinion about using the Baader prism diagonal with a WO Zenithstar 105mm triplet.
If the scope has a bit of uncorrected red, the prism should help there, but will introduce some defocus in the blue/violet.
My advice would be, if you're currently using a good mirror diagonal and like the view, perhaps you should stick with that combo.
The Baader prism is rather expensive, to be taking a chance on.
#22
Posted 04 September 2009 - 01:13 PM
Anyway I read Your review at C.N. about prisms and refractors doublets and triplets from Taiwan and the performance and so decided to read more.
In my case, I have an old diagonal 1.25" (aluminum) and since I have also a Nagler zoom, later I upgraded to a Everbrite 1.25". This is strange, but with the old diagonal I think I have a slightly better image than with the dielectric one (which obviously collects a little more light). Reading more about it, I know dielectric coatings could "filter" and then render not really good when objective has some undercorrected color.
So finally I decided I will try a prism, but reading more in "Astroforen.de" some optic-tests, there is no guaranteed result, because... I don't know. Can be better or opposite.
So I will buy with some fear...
#23
Posted 04 September 2009 - 01:41 PM
Do you know if the cheeper prism is alsom made by Zeiss and what its quality is? Or is it cheeper bec. it has a smaller ca (32mm as opposed to I think 34mm)?
Clear skies
#24
Posted 04 September 2009 - 01:50 PM
The less expensive Baader T2 prism is made in Japan.
Not the same glass as the Zeiss version.
However, being a Baader product, you can rely on it being a quality item.
#25
Posted 04 September 2009 - 04:19 PM
Thanx Clive for the info. I was asking because the question is will it have the same corrective properties as the zeiss?
I already have a prism (a cheap one) and though it was superior to my mirror diag (cheap one) my televue beat it hands down. So if I go fo a prism diag that is better quality I want to make sure that it is the right match for my scope.
Thanx