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Has anyone here used an Paramount MX and an AP900?

Started by saadabbasi , Apr 29 2012 06:32 AM
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200 replies to this topic

#51 Christopher Erickson

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:41 PM

I totally agree that using belt driven gears for mounts are great mainly to virtaully eliminate backlash. Backlash is the enemy for imaging. If Bisque has been using belt driven gears in their mount from day one and people have not complained about it, then I do not see a problem using belts in mounts. Like you said as long as it's well engineered. Probably PEC is not even needed.

Peter


I like timing-belt drive systems but it is important to note that about 98% of all telescope axis backlash comes from the interface between the worm gear and the worm wheel and that is not solved by a timing belt drive between the axis motor and the worm gear.

#52 Christopher Erickson

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:58 PM

I should have added that in my day-job, "backlash" is generally-defined as the play in the worm drive.

"Hysteresis" is generally-defined as the play in the drive train between the motor and the worm drive.

#53 Stew57

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:32 PM

Backlash can be compensated for but Hysteresis is trouble. My lowly cgem has an 8/3 pe error that is 75% of the 1st harmonic. No way for PEC to correctn for it when PEC is only corrects for 1 worm rotation on that mount. A belt drive would have eliminated that problem.

#54 orlyandico

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

Mark, actually that 8/3 is inside the cheapo Igarashi gearhead. Replacing the spur gear between the gearhead output shaft and the worm shaft with a belt would do nothing to fix that.

(this is the reason why A-P uses Maxon motors.. you can't get rid of backlash in the gearhead, but you can reduce it)

#55 Peter in Reno

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:22 PM

I am a little confused. Why would Maxon motors reduce backlash?

I have read that A-P motors are from Switzerland but did not know that they were Maxon motors. I have read great things about Maxon motors.

Peter

#56 orlyandico

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:37 AM

the CGEM problem is a not-high-quality gearbox.

if the gearbox has loose tolerances then there will be backlash and periodic error caused by the gearbox itself.

e.g. when reversing direction you need to take up the slack within the gearbox itself, before you can take up the slack in the worm-to-worm-wheel interface.

obviously the more money you put in the motor gearbox, the less backlash there will be in the gearbox itself.

maxon also produces coreless servo motors that do not "cog."

cogging of the motor due to the armature poles limits the minimum movement the motor can execute.

#57 Bowmoreman

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:02 AM

I am a little confused. Why would Maxon motors reduce backlash?

I have read that A-P motors are from Switzerland but did not know that they were Maxon motors. I have read great things about Maxon motors.

Peter


The Maxons in my MI 250 are great.

Belts virtually eliminate the hysteresis upstream of the worm... Not backlash tween worm and the final gear...

#58 orlyandico

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:52 AM

Dave - only true if the belt drive is directly driven by the motor via a high reduction. If there is a gearhead reduction on the motor itself, you would still have backlash inside the gearhead (which of course could be minimized by buying an expensive motor + gearhead).

To put this into perspective, a typical Maxon coreless motor with a 10:1 (range) high-end gearhead is $400 plus.

There's a reason these motors don't find their way into the CGEM's of the world...

#59 Peter in Reno

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:14 AM

YouTube video of MX Worm Block Assembly. You will see drive belt in the video.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ARKTL9XlSV4

Peter

#60 frolinmod

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:41 AM

Here's another video of the Paramount MX tracking a satellite:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=1b3GKy_sAr0

One of those pretty flashing types.

#61 Joe Bergeron

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:35 PM

A-P has stated that the currently available 900 mounts are the last that will be made. I think the upgrade will come sooner rather than later.


By the way, this is not a "rumor". It was stated by Marj Christen more than once on one of AP's Yahoo groups. I'm not inclined to go around bloviating about things I don't know.

#62 saadabbasi

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:29 AM

Does anyone here know how to get in touch with Software Bisque? I posted a message on their Support Forum on the 29th and still no one has replied. I also sent an email yesterday, but no response.

#63 blueman

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:20 PM

I believe that she also mentioned it would be about a year? One would assume there would be a run of AP-1600's and Mach1 mounts prior to the next run of the NEW AP-900?

Blueman


A-P has stated that the currently available 900 mounts are the last that will be made. I think the upgrade will come sooner rather than later.


By the way, this is not a "rumor". It was stated by Marj Christen more than once on one of AP's Yahoo groups. I'm not inclined to go around bloviating about things I don't know.


#64 Bob_Stan

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:34 PM

What forum did you post to at Software Bisque and what subject? I read them fairly regularly and don't remember seeing any posts from April 29th?

#65 saadabbasi

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:39 PM

What forum did you post to at Software Bisque and what subject? I read them fairly regularly and don't remember seeing any posts from April 29th?


http://www.bisque.co...ms/t/15430.aspx

Thanks!

#66 coz

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:13 PM

I think she said soon so maybe after the 1600s because the Mach One is now.

I believe that she also mentioned it would be about a year? One would assume there would be a run of AP-1600's and Mach1 mounts prior to the next run of the NEW AP-900?

Blueman




A-P has stated that the currently available 900 mounts are the last that will be made. I think the upgrade will come sooner rather than later.


By the way, this is not a "rumor". It was stated by Marj Christen more than once on one of AP's Yahoo groups. I'm not inclined to go around bloviating about things I don't know.


#67 Alph

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:07 PM

Does anyone here know how to get in touch with Software Bisque? I posted a message on their Support Forum on the 29th and still no one has replied. I also sent an email yesterday, but no response.

You need to re-post your question again and again. About a year ago, I called SB about a tripod for the Paramount MX and I did not like what I experienced. Maybe it is me but I have high expectation when I am about to spend $11,000.00 on two sets of worm/worm wheels and two electrical motors on a tripod. SB also seems very quick to recommend shipping the Paramounts back to them if there is a problem. As much you might like the looks of the PMX, considering your location, you need a mount that you can service and troubleshoot on your own.

#68 saadabbasi

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:29 PM

Does anyone here know how to get in touch with Software Bisque? I posted a message on their Support Forum on the 29th and still no one has replied. I also sent an email yesterday, but no response.

You need to re-post your question again and again. About a year ago, I called SB about a tripod for the Paramount MX and I did not like what I experienced. Maybe it is me but I have high expectation when I am about to spend $11,000.00 on two sets of worm/worm wheels and two electrical motors on a tripod. SB also seems very quick to recommend shipping the Paramounts back to them if there is a problem. As much you might like the looks of the PMX, considering your location, you need a mount that you can service and troubleshoot on your own.


Interesting... it's good to experience this before I purchased the mount. If I don't receive a reply soon, I think I'm just going to wait for the new ap900.

#69 LLEEGE

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:49 PM

One would assume there would be a run of AP-1600's and Mach1 mounts prior to the next run of the NEW AP-900?

Blueman

There will not be another run of 900's. The next run of 900 class mounts will be the new design. There is no decision yet as to what it will be called. Howard is pushing for 1000 so they can call it "The Grand".

#70 saadabbasi

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:54 PM

One would assume there would be a run of AP-1600's and Mach1 mounts prior to the next run of the NEW AP-900?

Blueman

There will not be another run of 900's. The next run of 900 class mounts will be the new design. There is no decision yet as to what it will be called. Howard is pushing for 1000 so they can call it "The Grand".


The Grand sounds pretty cool! Does anyone know if the "the grand" will have encoders like the AP1600GTO?

#71 LLEEGE

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:00 PM

Encoders will be an option, the same as the 1600.

#72 saadabbasi

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:05 PM

Encoders will be an option, the same as the 1600.


Thanks and would you happen to have any idea when the new mount will be announced? And if there's any increase in price?

#73 Alph

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:20 PM

Howard is pushing for 1000 so they can call it "The Grand".


How about "Three Grands" (for an encoder ) :lol:

#74 Peter in Reno

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:25 PM

Saad,

Do you realized that Paramount mounts require 48V DC power? I have no idea whether it would be an inconvenience to transport 48V battery to the field. I would not like transporting four 12V batteries to the field plus another 12V battery for other equipment like cameras, dew heater, etc. Something to think about.

Paramount sells optional 48V portable power supplies in 5AH and 10AH models. They costs between $600 and $750!!!!!

Peter

EDIT: Maybe you can use single 12V car battery and use an inverter (12V to 110VAC) to power the included 48V power supply.

#75 blueman

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:08 PM

That is one thing that I thought about a lot when looking at SB mounts, seems strange to use a voltage like that and not too practical in the field. I guess not such a problem if you are permanently mount in an observatory?
Blueman

Saad,

Do you realized that Paramount mounts require 48V DC power? I have no idea whether it would be an inconvenience to transport 48V battery to the field. I would not like transporting four 12V batteries to the field plus another 12V battery for other equipment like cameras, dew heater, etc. Something to think about.

Paramount sells optional 48V portable power supplies in 5AH and 10AH models. They costs between $600 and $750!!!!!

Peter

EDIT: Maybe you can use single 12V car battery and use an inverter (12V to 110VAC) to power the included 48V power supply.


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