Mallincam Alternative-Digital

I agree 100% with Rock, and I believe: the Mallincam is the best product currently on the market for displaying "live" deep space images.

And I want to see "live" as deeply as possible (rather than displayed in these forums as an image), so I'll be buying a Mallincam soon.

However although I am an Analog engineer, I respect the potential of Digital technology. To me it's not important whether the near-live image is displayed on an analog video monitor or a digital flat-screen: it's the quality of the image that counts! I certainly don't see the finest video monitor as an advantage if it's limited to PAL or NTSC resolution. That's why many of us endure the hassle of digital imaging; for the resolution!

I'm thinking of near-future potential; where this is all leading. Right now there are no high-definition video astrocams, and there are no "live" deep space digital display systems. I believe that someday soon there will be "near-live" (or even full-motion live) high resolution low-light display systems; the only question is whether they will employ the HDTV standard or computer displays. They are the same anyway (an HDTV has a high-performance computer at its core, and all its pathways are digital), and it will be a long time before the analog CCD sensors are replaced by something better.

So I hear that Craig Stark is working on a "near-live" capacity for Nebulosity, and I imagine that Rock Mallin is considering a full HDTV Mallincam. Mallincam is king of "live" for now, but what's coming in the next few years? I'm breathless in anticipation.

Just trying to foster ideas; and although as someone quoted Hyman Rickover "Great minds discuss ideas", it takes inspired engineering to develop them.

Pete

I get good individual subs with lots of detail around 180s. I use 300s on my luminance images usually.

A mallincam is the better way to go.

Rock - talking about the 14 seconds bit probably never should have happened here on this forum as it was a quote from you, reported by Chris.

The reason it was mentioned so many times by myself, is because I think that making a blanket statement about what you can see in 14 seconds with a mallincam compared to taking 5 minutes with a ccd camera needs a qualifier like you just posted - the Hickson 20 or Hickson 50.

There were no qualifiers posted previously with the exception of a 112 second M51 shot which had a guess only from the poster (Dwight wasn't insistent on it or anything, it was just a guess) of an equivalent 20 minutes of exposure via ccd.

I posted examples of 60 second and below screen grabs - no processing, other than someone out of the three stating his had a dark subtract and black and white set only.

The images were very similar. No 20 minutes needed. I asked repeatedly to discuss why those shots were invalid and never gotta reason other than they might have had more processing than let on.

It is very clear to me that one cannot generalize your claim of 14 seconds to 5 minutes with no qualifier and has been proven on several objects that I would find extremely difficult to see from my own backyard in my own scopes, that there are possibilities of achieving similar results to the mallincam with short exposure ccd shots captured on a PC screen be that netbook, laptop, or if you drag a desktop out in the yard - it is still "live" in my book.

I think your products are top notch in construction and abilities, but I also think there are some very good products by other companies that can compete in certain situations and just like the mallincam, might excel at some and not do as well in other areas.

I'm trying to put a perspective on this from what i've seen and read from multiple sites, forums, and personal websites of users of various types of equipment.

If I research something I'm going to buy, I usually research quite a bit before purchasing. I have only sold one piece of Astro gear out of many because I have been happy with the research I did and came outa happy buyer. The piece I sold I used for a year and a half before selling to get something different. I still praise its quality to interested parties.

I am just furthering my research here with my questions. I did not feel I got the appropriate answer yet, so kept asking. Still haven't got the appropriate answer because it does not match up to my previous research at all other than you posting your qualifier which makes more sense to the statement in context.

Regards

Eric

What seems to be getting confused here is the reason why this Forum exists.
Notice the Forum title: Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy.

Nowhere in the title is the word 'Imaging' mentioned, so why is there so much quibbling about what constitutes who is allowed to post images and who can't.
The gallery is only there so people can see what a camera is capable of, so they may make a decision on which one to buy, or which scope to use with a camera they already have, etc.
The Gallery is a visual display of the end result directly from the Video or Electronically Assisted Astronomy 'Equipment'.

We are in the 'Equipment' section. Not the imaging section.

I can see David's point about how sometimes it does seem to be a Mallincam biased Forum. I hope it doesn't turn into one as there are different forms of Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy. Not just AstroVideo cameras, and they all belong here.
As I have mentioned before on this same point, even DSLR's with Live View are also considered 'Live View' astronomy.

Also, a Mallincam, Samsung, Orion, or whatever AstroVideo camera is used is fine being computer controlled. Does being Computer controlled stop it from being an Electronically Assisted Astronomy Tool? No, it actually makes it Electronically assisted. It fits the title of this Forum.
Nowhere does it say that a camera must only work on an analogue system and only appear on a monitor to be suitable for this Forum.

If a person wanted to take a screen shot or a freeze frame from a DSLR's 'Live View' it is allowed to be posted in the Gallery here. It fits the description.
Where the boundaries blur is when a single frame image from a DSLR is considered. It is much the same as a single frame CCD Mode image from a Mallincam.
The boundaries are certainly getting greyer by the day.

I am always happy to see Nytecam's images in this Gallery when they are Screen Grabs/Stills from his 'Live' view. When they are stacked or processed in any way (Post 'live'), then they can't be, for that is when they belong in the Imaging Galleries. Same for everyone.
If I stacked my Mallincam video, it is not a true representation of what the camera can 'see'. I cannot post a stack from my 'Live' video in this Gallery.

Try to remember this Forum is about 'Equipment', not 'Imaging'

Ken,

So, it's alright for the Mallincam to do the stacking on board the camera but it isn't alright for a CCD to use a computer and software real time to do it. What's up with that?

Times have not changed in this forum it appears with the intro of "newer" video cameras.

Here's a quote from nytecam in 2009:

There's a third option that I've been doing for a decade or so - realtime auto register/stacking CCD images via the camera software but much longer sub-exposures typically 20s - 60s duration to good effect [see my links below] rather than the very brief video frames exposures typical here. As such this technique doesn't appear to satisfy the contraints of this forum but I'm very happy with the realtime viewing options like seeing a galaxy appear on screen and subsequent post processing results

end quote

http://www.cloudynig...=3347760&Forum=,,f100,,&Words="dss%20live"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2984655&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=
5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3347760



If this forum prohibits the capability for a CCD camera (or Sammy) to use software to level the playing field against the MC, this will remain a Mallincam "video processed image" forum. No one can tell me the MC does not do any of it's magic without "directions" on board the camera.

To me a CCD and software or a Sammy using DSS Live or this program along with DSS live should be allowed.

http://deepskyimaging.net/

It's all electronic right? It's all done (or can be done) out in the field "live" or "semi-live". The MC does it on-board. I guess that is "allowable". Right?

Honestly, I don't understand why this forum does not change with the times.

Your words below (quoted from your post I'm replying to) have me puzzled.

Quote:

Also, a Mallincam, Samsung, Orion, or whatever AstroVideo camera is used is fine being computer controlled. Does being Computer controlled stop it from being an Electronically Assisted Astronomy Tool? No, it actually makes it Electronically assisted. It fits the title of this Forum. Nowhere does it say that a camera must only work on an analogue system and only appear on a monitor to be suitable for this Forum.

If a person wanted to take a screen shot or a freeze frame from a DSLR's 'Live View' it is allowed to be posted in the Gallery here. It fits the description. Where the boundaries blur is when a single frame image from a DSLR is considered. It is much the same as a single frame CCD Mode image from a Mallincam. The boundaries are certainly getting greyer by the day.

I am always happy to see Nytecam's images in this Gallery when they are Screen Grabs/Stills from his 'Live' view. When they are stacked or processed in any way (Post 'live'), then they can't be, for that is when they belong in the Imaging Galleries. Same for everyone. If I stacked my Mallincam video, it is not a true representation of what the camera can 'see'. I cannot post a stack from my 'Live' video in this Gallery.

end quote

Your MC IS stacking it and processing it on board the camera...isn't it?

With the longer integration times now it is about time a pc and software be allowed as part of this forum. It it isn't, the MC Xtreme is gaming the system because indirectly it is hardwaired with directions.

Added: I tried to edit the link for nytecam's quote and call it Things Never Change". It looked like it worked, but it doesn't appear as though it did. Sorry...

David B in NM

David, Where did I say it isn't alright for a CCD to use a computer and software real time to do it? I'm confused.

It is being seen near Realtime, then it is ok.

Then you say that the Mallincam is stacking/processing 'onboard' the camera.
Yes, in a way it is. It is integrating. But so do the Samsungs, Orion, the Gstar-ex etc etc. They all do it. But they all do it 'In camera', not after it has been saved, then processed, then displayed from a saved file. That's imaging.

Also, Nytecams images ARE in the Gallery and happily so.

So, at this moment I fail to see your argument.

And also remember, as I just said above, "THIS IS NOT AN IMAGING FORUM".

Your MC IS stacking it and processing it on board the camera...isn't it?

I believe that is the misconception. From what I gather the MC will do an exposurer however long you set the integration for. After this time it takes the image and sends it out as avideo feed until the next exposure (integratin) is finished. It does not internally dark subtract or stack. A 56second exposure onj my mallincam certainly beats a 56 second dsi exposure even with dark subtract. Stacking is harder to compare. What exposures and number of subs would one compare? 2x28sec or 4x14? Even then the mallincam wins.

I would love to see a higher res digital camera do as good as the mallincam and I am looking. So far for the instant live feel the mallincam wins but the gap is narrowing. It is just a matter of time before the ccd imager crosses over into the "live video realm" and as the mallincam xtreme is crossing into the imager realm.

Ken,

This is why I'm puzzled. Your words below here from your earlier post.

quote I cannot post a stack from my 'Live' video in this Gallery. end quote

The MC is stacking images. DSS Live stacks images too as do scripts that can be written for a ccd camera.

All's I'm asking is if a view that is seen on a screen in the field via a software interface is allowable here. So far the answer has been no.

Software can enhance an electronic viewing device and software can be used to see the live image on screen before any final processing for an "image" (ie, tweak the colors and various other areas). So far, this capability has not been allowed in this forum.

Is it allowable (a software interface that places an accumulated image on screen in the field like nytecam has scripted and DSS Live presents) to place that image in the gallery?

If it is not, the MC Xtreme images seem "favored" here over other technological advances and this truly has turned in to and will remain a MC forum.

Video technology has advanced and this forum finds it great. Software and pc power has advanced since 2009 and it is not allowed here up to this point in time.

David B in NM

Really, no images? All video is a string of images.

The real problem with this forum is that although the goal is about "live", none of the options discussed are truly "live", and everyone's opinion of "near-live" is subjective.

Personally, I think that anything beyond a few seconds is not "near-live", and especially anything that integrates so long that a tracking mount must be used is well beyond what anyone could consider to be "live". Discussing images integrated over a minute in a forum where "live" is important is absurd, as is any type of manual processing.

I would suggest limiting the discussion to display systems where the integrating and processing time (combined, by any means) does not exceed 30 seconds.

Obviously a Mallincam can meet this standard, even though it would probably be blurred a bit if it was on a stationary mount. A digital system that automatically acquired a fast string of 1 second images, stacked, calibrated, stretched, and applied curves could potentially produce a finer image off that same stationary mount with the same optics.

Pete

Eric first of all the discussion started regarding a certain camera (Imaging Source) in comparison to a Mallincam for live or near live video observation. I know personally from experience that the Mallincams are much more sensitive for video observing than your typical ccd camera made for astrophotography imaging. Yes I posted Rocks quote here and big deal if I did! I do not have to prove this point since I did not state it but only directed it here which I believe fits it this discussion group. Rock quoted it and proved it with showing what he has achieved in just seconds with the Hichson 50.

You said that Dwight was the only one who posted an image? I thought I posted an almost 2 min UNPORCESSED image showing clearly the achievement of capturing the Hickson 50 from my severe light polluted 3.5 mag backyard. I would love to see the same under similar conditions a ccd camera capture that with the same detail and low noise using 2 min!!

If you have an issue with me posting Rocks statement then it is your issue to deal with and not mine.

Glenn unfortunately because a DSLR uses the RGB Bayer matrix over the ccd sensor you cannot bin the pixels without causing colour issues and also a big resolution loss.

Cheers,

Chris A

Mark you stated the points direct to the fact. Thank you for this post, I feel the exact same way.

Chris A

Thank you Peter!

I can see now that I am not the only one who is puzzled about the purpose of this forum. I too believe that after 4-8 seconds it is no longer "live".

This has turned in to an MC Forum whether others want to believe it or not. Technolgy has advanced yet this forum has prevented any advancements (other than video) from being viewed. No stacking or on-the-fly processing allowed. I find that odd in today's world.

I agree with your "time" criteria (cutoff accumulation time).

No one will ever know there are other methods now available that would allow others the opportunity to realize an MC is not the only option in today's world. However, they will think that until the playing field is leveled. The rules have to change here or the MC will be seen by others as the only method available.

David B in NM

T

Rock thank you for posting this information here regarding yours and others Hickson 50 experience.

Chris A

Ken, I think this is where you nailed it! * using a web cam, dslr or ccd camera the images must be save on a computer first and then stack/processed for display*. One of the nice things about using a Mallincam, Stellacam or Samsung is you DO NOT have to save an image for display.

Chris A

David please do some more careful reserch on the Mallincam. The camera DOES NOT stack images within the camera. The electronic shutter remains open until the integration is reached and then the image is instantly displayed. A refresh
takes place again until one stops the exposure or the camera has reached the specified amount. I think it is the FPS that confuses people.

Chris A

Well lets all just obsevere the moon, planets, solar, open & glob clusters, a few planetary nebulas, the odd nebula like M42 and the odd galaxy like M82 because that is all that most are going to observe even with a Mallincam using 4 to 8 sec

Chris,

The Xtreme operates like a normal CCD imager does. I see no reason why a MC is allowed to perform it's functions on board and post images here, yet, a CCD imager cannot use software for their camera to do the same "off board" the camera.

Please remember this is NOT a Video only forum. However, it appears to be a Video only orientated forum since "off board" methods are prohibited from being posted here.

That's why I view it now as a MC Forum. In the past the Samsung cameras were welcome a while back. However, a 512x is nothing now. They can be more effective with DSS live though. But, as we know, only the MC can do on-board processing and on-board processing is all's that is allowed here in this forum.

David B in NM

Technically speaking real-time live view is a frame rate that the eye cannot determine the individual frames. That is somewhere between 30 FPS and 60 FPS or 1/30th to 1/60th shutter speeds. With consumer scopes that isn’t going to show you much no matter what camera you use.

That is where near real time live view comes in. The definition of that is strictly up to the viewer. However, it almost always involves shutter speeds of longer than 1/30th of a second.

Personally I consider any camera that can output an image at 1/30th of a second to 1 minute shutter speed to be a near real time camera. It does not have to be a continuous stream of images. It can simply be a single image that appears 1 minute or less after you expose the sensor.

To me the Mallincam and all of the other cameras discussed here are not being used as video cameras. They may be capable of recording video. However, I believe that it becomes a series of still images at frame rates below 15 frames per second.

Honestly, I don’t care what you do to the image in that 1 minute or less. If you can display it that quickly you won’t lose interest from the viewers. Any more than that and you might. If you can do real time or near real time post processing. Then have at it.

The whole point is that you can display the image in a time greater than the naked eye needs but less than 1 minute.

This also doesn’t mean that anything that takes longer than 1 minute to display the item does not belong in this forum. It is simply not “near real time”. However, it is still Electronically Assisted Astronomy as opposed to Ocular(Done or perceived by the eye) Astronomy.

All of these semantics are really pointless. Who cares if you painted the picture yourself. If you can do it in 1 minute or less then it is near real time astronomy in my book.

I have checked out the Mallincam web page and I could not locate the specific images that Rock was referring to. Rock could you post links to them? I am not doubting their validity. I just simply want to see what the image from the Mallincam looks like for those objects for short shutter durations.

Ken, I think this is where you nailed it! * using a web cam, dslr or ccd camera the images must be save on a computer first and then stack/processed for display*. One of the nice things about using a Mallincam, Stellacam or Samsung is you DO NOT have to save an image for display.

Chris A

That is simply a false statement. For DSLR's you can display the output in the exact same fashion that the Mallincam does. RCA output to any LCD or Monitor.

Eric first of all the discussion started regarding a certain camera (Imaging Source) in comparison to a Mallincam for live or near live video observation. I know personally from experience that the Mallincams are much more sensitive for video observing than your typical ccd camera made for astrophotography imaging. Yes I posted Rocks quote here and big deal if I did! I do not have to prove this point since I did not state it but only directed it here which I believe fits it this discussion group. Rock quoted it and proved it with showing what he has achieved in just seconds with the Hichson 50.

You said that Dwight was the only one who posted an image? I thought I posted an almost 2 min UNPORCESSED image showing clearly the achievement of capturing the Hickson 50 from my severe light polluted 3.5 mag backyard. I would love to see the same under similar conditions a ccd camera capture that with the same detail and low noise using 2 min!!

If you have an issue with me posting Rocks statement then it is your issue to deal with and not mine.

The statement is not accurate in regards to examples I posted contradicting the same statement. That is why I have an issue with it. It's very simple really. I have explained my position and reasons for asking the same questions several times. Not much more to say beyond that. The examples are there for everyone to judge for themselves. It's up to others to decide if the posters of those images are not being truthful and doing more processing than they claim. I, for one, believe that they are being truthful.

You have shown me no evidence to the contrary.

Well lets all just obsevere the moon, planets, solar, open & glob clusters, a few planetary nebulas, the odd nebula like M42 and the odd galaxy like M82 because that is all that most are going to observe even with a Mallincam using 4 to 8 sec

So how does Rock jump from those objects to SUPER DARK objects in only twice the duration? Something doesn't add up between your statements and Rock's.

On the third one, Canon DSLRs will do that up to a degree, i.e., approx 1/10 sec but not more. I.e., it prefers to give the live experience than let user see anything at all.

One of the problems is that everyone lumps all DSLR or interchangeable lens cameras into a category based on what the Canon cameras can do.

My Panasonic GH2 for example can do true near real-time live view video for shutter speeds up to 8 seconds with ISO sensitivity values up to ISO 12,800.

In fact it provides enough light in the live view that I never have to use eye pieces at all. I can align, calibrate, and focus using the camera alone.

Just my luck. Someone in our area just informed us that he will be bringing a Mallincam and his scope to our monthly viewing site this Friday.

Finally a chance to see the Mallincam in action. "This otta be a hoot".

I found this article when researching the Hickson 50. Apparently there are other CCD cameras that can do it in less than 30 seconds as well.

http://www.castor2.c.../Hickson_50.pdf

I thought you said it would take all other cameras at least 10 minutes to do this?