I have to go out observing with the hubby. He can't move around all this equipment without me.
jon
Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why?
Started by
orion61
, Jan 14 2013 03:01 PM
250 replies to this topic
#76
Jon Isaacs
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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:38 PM
jon
#77
droid
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rocketman
Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:43 PM
Nice web site Barb, I was looking at the gallry photos,the star party photos were taken next to a missle site???
Id love to get a good photo of that little Joe standing in the background.
Id love to get a good photo of that little Joe standing in the background.
#78
Bill Whitehead
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:59 AM
Friends,
My astronomy club has quite a few female members, though they are still in the minority. Still, I have met many women over the years who like science.
However, the real puzzle is why so few own and operate telescopes. I know only one woman who owns one.
Ask yourself this question; How many women own telescopes at your club(s)? How many have you met at star parties with their own equipment? Of all the star parties I've attended over the years, I've only met one.
I must admit, the disparity between women who are interested in science and women who take the plunge and own a telescope is startling. I have no clue why.
Peace, Bill
My astronomy club has quite a few female members, though they are still in the minority. Still, I have met many women over the years who like science.
However, the real puzzle is why so few own and operate telescopes. I know only one woman who owns one.
Ask yourself this question; How many women own telescopes at your club(s)? How many have you met at star parties with their own equipment? Of all the star parties I've attended over the years, I've only met one.
I must admit, the disparity between women who are interested in science and women who take the plunge and own a telescope is startling. I have no clue why.
Peace, Bill
#79
Tony Flanders
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:44 AM
However, the real puzzle is why so few own and operate telescopes. I know only one woman who owns one.
Ask yourself this question; How many women own telescopes at your club(s)? How many have you met at star parties with their own equipment? Of all the star parties I've attended over the years, I've only met one.
That surprises me. Several women in my astronomy club are quite active; you will often find them manning (womanning?) telescopes at public events.
Then of course there's Barbara Wilson and Sue French, who are in a different class from us normal mortals ...
Still, there's no doubt that women are seriously underrepresented.
As are African-Americans and young people, just two name two subsets of the population. The small number of African-Americans obviously has something to do with economics, but it's equally obvious that economics don't account for it entirely.
Jon's point that young people are less likely to join clubs and show up at events is legitimate. But they're also underrepresented in terms of internet forums and telescope sales. I wouldn't be too quick to leap to conclusions ... this kind of thing tends to go in cycles. But if current trends continue, it's very bad news for our hobby.
To those of us who make our living from the hobby, these are genuinely urgent questions.
Tony Flanders
Associate Editor, Sky & Telescope
#80
bunyon
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:25 AM
People have been talking about the age factor being bad news for the hobby as long as I've been in the hobby (30 years this year!). I'm not saying they're wrong or that it doesn't look bad, but it is complicated enough that I don't think definitive conclusions can be reached.
Certainly if 40+ folks stop entering the hobby, we're in trouble. But we seem to have a never ending source of those (er, us).
I think the same is true, more or less, for women and minorities. There aren't many, today, true. But there seem to be more than when I started long ago. If people enter the hobby at older ages, then advances in opportunity for women and minorities should start to show up over the next decade or two. One hopes anyway.
Certainly if 40+ folks stop entering the hobby, we're in trouble. But we seem to have a never ending source of those (er, us).
I think the same is true, more or less, for women and minorities. There aren't many, today, true. But there seem to be more than when I started long ago. If people enter the hobby at older ages, then advances in opportunity for women and minorities should start to show up over the next decade or two. One hopes anyway.
#81
kenrenard
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:37 AM
I know with our local club I am one of the youngest members and I'm 41. We do have a few kids who show up for big events my daughter being one of them. I think with instant gratification society as a whole doesn't value nature as much as previous generations. I know people who spend way to much time on facebook and twitter and almost ignore you while having a conversation. They are so distracted it would be difficult for them to spend time contemplating something small and dim that might take time to see.
My two year old screamed out look Daddy all those birds ( seeing a group of about 100 or so starlings fly overhead.) She was caught in the wonder of nature but several adults near by never looked up from their smartphone.
Some of my greatest lessons have been taught by a two year old!
My two year old screamed out look Daddy all those birds ( seeing a group of about 100 or so starlings fly overhead.) She was caught in the wonder of nature but several adults near by never looked up from their smartphone.
Some of my greatest lessons have been taught by a two year old!
#82
orion61
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:41 AM
Luv the tag Barb,
But I need my Palm read!
The Women are coming out of the woodwork now WooHoo
But I need my Palm read!
The Women are coming out of the woodwork now WooHoo
#83
David Pavlich
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:54 AM
The age thing is definately there. In my case and I'm sure in a LOT of cases, I was interested in astronomy for a long time. However, life happens and astronomy gets put on the back burner. Fast forward, life has settled, kids have flown the coupe and now you have a little extra time and a little extra money. You start with a 60mm Meade refractor and then you end up with a rolloff roof in your backyard.
Our club is mostly older guys and the star parties that I've attended are pretty much the same.
David
Our club is mostly older guys and the star parties that I've attended are pretty much the same.
David
#84
Achernar
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:15 AM
I gather you and your husband have his and her telescopes? I think it's great to have not only an undersanding spouse, but one who enjoys time under the stars as much as you do. 
Taras
Taras
#85
csrlice12
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:25 AM
In the last year I think I've met two women who do astronomy. One had just bought a small mak as she said she was getting too old for the "heavy equipment" anymore. The other owns the local brick and morter telescope store...and a more knowledgeable lady I've never met...She really knows her stuff when it comes to equipment, and she is a very active observer and DAS member. Once or twice a month, her store has "Star Parties" where the set up their display scopes outside and let you try them out; or just come around and be sociable. Both are older than 50, like a lot of the rest of us. Sure glad to have that store there though; for those who don't have access to a brick and morter telescope store, you have my sincere sympathy. I imagine the space race had a lot to do with the interest of the baby boomer generation in astronomy. A Mars Mission, or a moon colony, or even commercial space airlines, might be the key to another generation of amateur astronomers...unfortunately, a select few seem more interested in shining searchlights into the sky or covering a river with cloth for "art".
#86
Feidb
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:53 AM
Carol,
You're absolutely right! While there have always been a few women at our major events, the hobby has been overall male dominated but that doesn't make it a male hobby any more than any other pursuit.
I was a solo amateur for over 25 years and whenever I brought the subject up, I usually got blank stares or some comment about looking in someone's window. On the the other hand, when another male would ask me about sports I would give them the same blank stare I got asking about astronomy, as I have absolutely no interest in that. In fact, it's my wife that is interested in sports, football and NASCAR where to me, it's like watching paint dry.
You're absolutely right! While there have always been a few women at our major events, the hobby has been overall male dominated but that doesn't make it a male hobby any more than any other pursuit.
I was a solo amateur for over 25 years and whenever I brought the subject up, I usually got blank stares or some comment about looking in someone's window. On the the other hand, when another male would ask me about sports I would give them the same blank stare I got asking about astronomy, as I have absolutely no interest in that. In fact, it's my wife that is interested in sports, football and NASCAR where to me, it's like watching paint dry.
#87
csa/montana
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:57 AM
the hobby has been overall male dominated but that doesn't make it a male hobby any more than any other pursuit.
Bingo!
#88
weezy
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:06 AM
Some of the problem is male opinion. When I was looking for a scope - it was "get a dob" We have a reflector,and I didn't like it. I've since wound up with a 4"apo, PST, and the Orion 120ST.
I also don't make notes, write out an observing list, etc.
I like to hunt and just see what I can see.
There's nothing wrong with other hobbies. I do sew and quilt, but on the technical end. Uses more technology and control. Besides which, I don't like half the stuff sold in the stores. I also like color play.
I'm the IT dept around here - not my field, I have a degree in graphic design. But I will take up a challenge. My phone is a Nexus S - I got annoyed with Google, and rooted the phone. I'll run a ROM that suits me. I don't do entertainment or social, another reason to root. (In their place I have most of the astronomical apps)
I've found quite a few interesting downloads and can run them from a tablet via HDMI. BBC puts out quite a few.
The Vulcan, who has a degree in EE, built the reflector as a science fair project, can't even grab my phone without changing something on the screen. He pooh-poohed the Telrad when he first saw it, had trouble believing SkEye. I told him the phone and tablet did have GPS and gyros,but I had to get a technical explanation for him to understand it. He thought both devices were too small. He didn't realize that the tablet could do HDMI and has been enjoying Cosmos all over again. Once he figured out how to handle the touch screen.
Bigger isn't always better. What good is an 8" dob going to do me if I can't move it by myself? I can pick up what I have and enjoy it. I'd rather spend time looking than writing or dictating notes.
Right now, it's either frigid or cloudy.
I enjoy nature. I would have looked at those birds.
I also don't make notes, write out an observing list, etc.
I like to hunt and just see what I can see.
There's nothing wrong with other hobbies. I do sew and quilt, but on the technical end. Uses more technology and control. Besides which, I don't like half the stuff sold in the stores. I also like color play.
I'm the IT dept around here - not my field, I have a degree in graphic design. But I will take up a challenge. My phone is a Nexus S - I got annoyed with Google, and rooted the phone. I'll run a ROM that suits me. I don't do entertainment or social, another reason to root. (In their place I have most of the astronomical apps)
I've found quite a few interesting downloads and can run them from a tablet via HDMI. BBC puts out quite a few.
The Vulcan, who has a degree in EE, built the reflector as a science fair project, can't even grab my phone without changing something on the screen. He pooh-poohed the Telrad when he first saw it, had trouble believing SkEye. I told him the phone and tablet did have GPS and gyros,but I had to get a technical explanation for him to understand it. He thought both devices were too small. He didn't realize that the tablet could do HDMI and has been enjoying Cosmos all over again. Once he figured out how to handle the touch screen.
Bigger isn't always better. What good is an 8" dob going to do me if I can't move it by myself? I can pick up what I have and enjoy it. I'd rather spend time looking than writing or dictating notes.
Right now, it's either frigid or cloudy.
I enjoy nature. I would have looked at those birds.
#89
Tony Flanders
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:12 AM
People have been talking about the age factor being bad news for the hobby as long as I've been in the hobby (30 years this year!).
So it's all your fault -- you're scaring them away! As it happens, the trend started just about 30 years ago. In the 1960s the hobby was full of young people.
Likewise, the circulation of Sky & Telescope increased every year until they hired me. After that, it's all been downhill ...
I don't think definitive conclusions can be reached.
Agreed.
There's also definitely a tendency for people to take up stargazing when young, put it on hold while they're absorbed by kids and careers, and then resume when they have some leisure time. It's hard to guess how that will play out.
Tony Flanders
Associate Editor, Sky & Telescope
#90
Tom Polakis
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:19 AM
It is a time consuming hobby, younger observers have families and careers that take priority.
Jon, that argument comes up often in this discussion, but you need only look at photos from star parties as recently as the late 80's to realize that the median amateur astronomer age back then was 30-something. Younger observers had families and careers back then. Today the median age is 50-something. As Tony Flanders has pointed out, those who make their living with amateur astronomy know what the trend in the data looks like.
Back on topic, one thing that has not changed in the past few decades is the male dominance of the hobby.
Tom
#91
NeilMac
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:47 AM
I agree the age has changed. When i started in the late 70's it was the young, now its like average 50's.
However I think it also has to do with the community, it the UK their are towns were its very mixed and allot of youngsters.
However I think it also has to do with the community, it the UK their are towns were its very mixed and allot of youngsters.
#92
csrlice12
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:04 PM
"Right now, it's either frigid or cloudy."
and on that point, it doesn't matter what **** you are.......
and on that point, it doesn't matter what **** you are.......
#93
Carol L
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Cosmos
Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:25 PM
Just curious.. a question to the women: On a personal level, did you find there are artificial barriers to this hobby for women, ones that do not exist for men?
I don't believe i have, Jon. But as a lone wolf observer, i'm probably not qualified to answer that question. You see, there aren't any local clubs around here, and i don't go to star parties - my rural 40 acres has pretty dark skies and there's really no point in going elsewhere. Since getting into all this in the late '90s, my only contact with other Amateurs has been online and i've endured my share of sexist comments from male Amateurs (who never matured from the neck up
) but TBH, i can't really say i've encountered any artificial barriers.
#94
Achernar
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Hubble
Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:51 PM
You and me both, I can care less about sports and not just because they are for me about as fun as watching paint dry too. I know the true purpose of sports as we know them today, and it's nothing to do with sports. Why do you think the Romans had all the arenas from one end of the empire to the other? It's nice to know I am not the only one who feels that way. Most folks in my area think I came from outer space for that. 
I tell the local rednecks that astronomy is a lot like fishing, you never know what you can catch on a good night. 
Taras
I tell the local rednecks that astronomy is a lot like fishing, you never know what you can catch on a good night. Taras
#95
BigC
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Fly Me to the Moon
Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:17 PM
Folks this is going to be political.
If you think about it,the population statistics of our nation are seriously skewed from what they might have been had people continued to follow the lifestyles of the previous generations.Think about what or who is missing and why.
What we have is proportionately fewer young people,but ones expecting much more in terms of instant gratification.
Ham radio holds little for a person accustomed from tender age to instant world-wide communication;likewise peering through a small scope at faint fuzzy objects holds little for those accustomed to seeing splashy multi-color Hubble or Keck photos.
The return doesn't seem worth the effort to many.Especially if there is little money or fame to be made.
Other traditional hobbies are also suffering:bowling alleys are closing, and skeet shooting and archery is practically nil in my area unlike their popularity in the 1960s.
Today peopl;e ,young and not-so-young, spend enormorous amounts of time playing with computers and video games. How many times and how many people have you seen walking head-down intent on manipulating tiny buttons on their personal portable oracle,the smartphone ?
I fear we are becoming a people who have more vicarious thrills than is good.
If you think about it,the population statistics of our nation are seriously skewed from what they might have been had people continued to follow the lifestyles of the previous generations.Think about what or who is missing and why.
What we have is proportionately fewer young people,but ones expecting much more in terms of instant gratification.
Ham radio holds little for a person accustomed from tender age to instant world-wide communication;likewise peering through a small scope at faint fuzzy objects holds little for those accustomed to seeing splashy multi-color Hubble or Keck photos.
The return doesn't seem worth the effort to many.Especially if there is little money or fame to be made.
Other traditional hobbies are also suffering:bowling alleys are closing, and skeet shooting and archery is practically nil in my area unlike their popularity in the 1960s.
Today peopl;e ,young and not-so-young, spend enormorous amounts of time playing with computers and video games. How many times and how many people have you seen walking head-down intent on manipulating tiny buttons on their personal portable oracle,the smartphone ?
I fear we are becoming a people who have more vicarious thrills than is good.
#96
NeilMac
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Skylab
Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:24 PM
True the population has been dumbed down that kids dont know were french fries come from, cant tell time unless its a digital clock and dont know when to laugh unless its got a laugh track on it.
#97
csrlice12
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ISS
Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:34 PM
Not to mention if the register didn't tell them, they'd have no idea what change to give......
That being said, I've also ran into a lot of the opposite...young, smart people who actually do care about their job and providing customer service...We were in the mall the other day (and this isn't the first time) shopping and went into one of the stores. The lady (hard to not call them "girls" even though she was in her 20s, gettin' old tends to change how you label things...)had more metal in her ears, nose, lips, eyelids, and tongue then my car has. But she was one of the most polite and helpful people I've met in my 59 years. Just shows you can't judge a book by its cover....
To be truthful though, didn't our parents/grandparents feel/say the same thing about us??????????
That being said, I've also ran into a lot of the opposite...young, smart people who actually do care about their job and providing customer service...We were in the mall the other day (and this isn't the first time) shopping and went into one of the stores. The lady (hard to not call them "girls" even though she was in her 20s, gettin' old tends to change how you label things...)had more metal in her ears, nose, lips, eyelids, and tongue then my car has. But she was one of the most polite and helpful people I've met in my 59 years. Just shows you can't judge a book by its cover....
To be truthful though, didn't our parents/grandparents feel/say the same thing about us??????????
#98
stmguy
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Viking 1
Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:40 PM
Perhaps this quote from an article about Stellafane says something about our hobby 
"Spouses aside, women are definitely in the minority at Stellafane. For all the bearded, Apollo-era men in attendance, it could pass for a convention of summering Santa Clauses. I spotted at least two men wearing red suspenders and shorts."
http://www.7dvt.com/2010stellafane
Norm
"Spouses aside, women are definitely in the minority at Stellafane. For all the bearded, Apollo-era men in attendance, it could pass for a convention of summering Santa Clauses. I spotted at least two men wearing red suspenders and shorts."
http://www.7dvt.com/2010stellafane
Norm
#99
uniondrone
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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:25 PM
For all the bearded, Apollo-era men in attendance, it could pass for a convention of summering Santa Clauses.
Hmmm... they might be on to something!
#100
Madratter
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Hubble
Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:47 PM
I think it is pretty much socialization, not genetics. As as previously been mentioned, the hobby is full of old guys. And back when those old guys grew up, women weren't supposed to be good in math and science.
Also, my guess is that many women simply were taught it isn't safe to be outside at night by yourself. And because of that, they simply don't feel safe outside at night.
As for why young people aren't interested, many of them live in places where the sky is lit up and there aren't many stars to see. On top of that, what with the various planetary probes and the Hubble, it can be a hard sell as to why you should look through an eyepiece. To me, the view is incredibly beautiful, but I can certainly understand why others don't find it so.
For what it is worth, I have a daughter who loves Football. My sons tolerate it at best. I also have two nieces (both in their 20s) who were quite interested in seeing Jupiter with just their eyes. The same cannot be said of my nephews. Unfortunately, my nieces are not nearby, so I can't show them the view through my telescopes.
Also, my guess is that many women simply were taught it isn't safe to be outside at night by yourself. And because of that, they simply don't feel safe outside at night.
As for why young people aren't interested, many of them live in places where the sky is lit up and there aren't many stars to see. On top of that, what with the various planetary probes and the Hubble, it can be a hard sell as to why you should look through an eyepiece. To me, the view is incredibly beautiful, but I can certainly understand why others don't find it so.
For what it is worth, I have a daughter who loves Football. My sons tolerate it at best. I also have two nieces (both in their 20s) who were quite interested in seeing Jupiter with just their eyes. The same cannot be said of my nephews. Unfortunately, my nieces are not nearby, so I can't show them the view through my telescopes.
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