Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!!

Darryl,
I understood you had not done a derotation of RGB frames, but was wondering if you had performed a derotation of the video streams. I understand now that you did neither.

Since the time of your recordings were under 2.5 minutes per channel and the fact the polar areas don't move much in that time, I'm ok with thinking that the hexagonal structure might be resolved. I hope you and others down south can demonstrate this further. Thats just my scientific background coming through. In no way did I want to dampen your enthusiasm or take anything away from your great image.

All the images Thierry shows are computer generated. I don't know if he uses an artificial star when actually collimating. But your idea of a mirror locking mechanism is good. Then one should be able to shoot directly to Thierry's 3rd step which is to collimate with a star in focus. Its good practice to end focus with main mirror using counterclockwise movement to load the mirror, lock and then focus with the Crayford. I know you know this already but for completeness sakes, and the others reading this, I thought it good to mention.

Glenn

If that is referring to me, David, I'm not trying to be negative - I plainly stated that it looks hexagonal and did not say one word about "artifact". It clearly isn't an artifact. I even called it a "feat".

As to not expecting a hexagon, before I looked closely at it, I read several posts talking about a hexagon and I've seen the Cassini images of the hexagon. It's hard to divorce that from your expectations.

Like you, I think it's real and like you I think that later in the apparition - or, if not, in the next few years as the pole becomes more and more visible - this feat will be borne out as real. It's a stunning image and a real testimony to what good tech in the hands of one skilled in the arts can do at this point. If you must know, I've even put my money where my mouth is here (if you get my drift).

However, I think we should always tend toward the skeptical with any new imaging breakthroughs (or, for that matter, any new discovery).


EDIT: Maybe you were referring to Glenn's question about derotation - I think it a good question but based on little polar movement (as Glenn says above) I doubt it plays a huge role. To clarify my position: if all I had to go on was the original image, I'm not sure I'd buy it although it certainly looks hexagonal. I think the polar projection nails it, though.

If that is referring to me, David, I'm not trying to be negative - I plainly stated that it looks hexagonal and did not say one word about "artifact". It clearly isn't an artifact. I even called it a "feat".

As to not expecting a hexagon, before I looked closely at it, I read several posts talking about a hexagon and I've seen the Cassini images of the hexagon. It's hard to divorce that from your expectations.

Like you, I think it's real and like you I think that later in the apparition - or, if not, in the next few years as the pole becomes more and more visible - this feat will be borne out as real. It's a stunning image and a real testimony to what good tech in the hands of one skilled in the arts can do at this point. If you must know, I've even put my money where my mouth is here (if you get my drift).

However, I think we should always tend toward the skeptical with any new imaging breakthroughs (or, for that matter, any new discovery).

Paul, it was not directed at you, there are more than a few posts that are doubtful in this thread. I have nothing wrong with skepticism, there just seems to be a very large dose of it on these forums at times. Sometimes I catch myself wondering how much of it is actually scientifically motivated... we are human after all. It got really bad on the last image of an impact on Jupiter, which was a stunning capture.

I share your sentiment, the image is a real feat. A combination of good seeing, a large scope, and a new camera with capabilities are not fully understood yet. Bravo to Darryl, the ASI120MM, and the C14.

Fair enough - and certainly if the skepticism isn't scientifically based it shouldn't be there. Hey, I'd love to image the hexagon. Heck, I'd like to get a color Saturn. But that shouldn't let me doubt other's work.

As Glenn says, though, that science training makes one keep asking questions. It is almost rote at times. Questions get asked far past the point that most folks are convinced. Very, very occasionally, those extra questions uncover something interesting.

(I do recall the Jupiter impact thread. There were indeed some fairly unbelievable questions toward the end of that).

Just gorgeous. Makes me think I should have gone for the ASI120MM instead of the ASI120MC.

Congratulations on a great image. Good luck with the head.

...over the next 3 months Saturn will grow a couple of arcseconds, go from 0.6 magnitude to 0.3, climb about 20 degrees higher in the sky and (hopefully) there'll be better seeing opportunities also along with me really coming to grips with image scales and settings with this great little camera.....and next time I might get time to collimate...properly

Darryl I continue to see a hexagon in your image but any doubt held onto by others should fade in the near future when the factors you cite in the above quote begin to kick in. I for one can hardly wait to see what you'll come up with in April!

Pete

Thank you also Mert, Adam and Pete - most appreciated and I'm hoping for a good imaging season also!

Golly gee fellas, I'm the biggest skeptic you'd find in a month of Sundays!!!

As to scientific logic or any other types all this had me thinking about the a priori, axioms & Euclidean theorems.....please excuse me for digging a bit deeper by mentioning such "esoteric" philosophy/thought-processing into an AA thread..!

One definition of a priori:"A thinker’s justification or entitlement in
forming a particular belief is a priori if it is independent of the content or kind of
any of the thinker’s particular perceptual experiences."

Wiki's for axiom: "As used in modern logic, an axiom is simply a premise or starting point for reasoning.[4] Axioms define and delimit the realm of analysis; the relative truth of an axiom is taken for granted within the particular domain of analysis, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other relative truths. No explicit view regarding the absolute truth of axioms is ever taken in the context of modern mathematics, as such a thing is considered to be an irrelevant and impossible contradiction in terms."

The esoteric I deliberately type as "esoteric" above - and old Euclid is also (slightly) relevant to this post....!

Tbh (and you can check the thread) I made no mention of the "Hex Storm" untill well after others had started debating said.....I didn't have one ounce of doubt mind you, but I do respect each and everyone's right to doubt, debate and even believe it isn't apparent...and still do so on this particular subject if they so wish, as a matter of fact!

I actually confirmed this shape with the red channel which I processed and loaded into WJ to create the NP map - all this before I'd even posted that red channel and before I got into my (alternative) long-winded rationale.....I wanted to be dead sure and I also wanted that confirmation via an rgb WJ compilation. (I have made said - obviously - and hopefully will post it later - although I want to "fiddle" with it a bit more yet. )

So I guess in loose terms I held "esoteric" knowledge and thus an advantage over everyone except my partner and "imaging comrade-in-arms" Patricia.....I apologise for taking my time revealing my complete hand but I do like a good debate - and you all know how I love to waffle on ad infinitum..!!!

- and old Euclid?

If we're going to be completely honest and accurate I believe we can clearly state that my image (particularly the NP projection) demonstrates a roughly polygonal outline to the (darker) NPZ with what could (fairly easily) be identified as vertices at the intersection of the (roughly) straight edges.....

The specific polygonal shape - a hexagon - is what is revealed in the infinitely more resolved Voyager images...although even at that resolution the shape could never defined as anything more than a "rough" hexagon in actuality.

Glenn - I don't contradict much if anything of what you've said on the subject of collimation (and yes, to my mind Thierry's images display a far-too-bright poisson point to be "real" imho...but that takes nothing away from the quality of that as a reference article! )

Also, you must appreciate that I'm not like most imagers in that the scope (aside and as well as from the mirror "sag" per se) is lifted and carried to my car and carried in it on a sled.....and even at my close-by dark sky site on the edge of the Murray Mallee (where I took this image) about 130km from home I travel the last 0.5 to 2km on bumpy dirt roads. (depending upon which of the 2 places I usually stop at)

I drive what you term an "SUV" or what we term a "4WD" or "Bush Basher" (Nissan Pathfinder) and the suspension is much harder than that of my old Ford station wagon...

I mention this because collimation is allways quite severely affected by the time I get anywhere and actually have the scope on the mount.....in fact I also suspect that some recent very high temperatures might've moved grease between the primary sleeve & baffle because a most surprising thing occurred whilst we were up there - I had to readjust the primary focus knob to throw the image sufficiently far out from the Moonlite to get it within the movement's range.....this could only indicate serious "sag" to me even though I do "load" the mirror with cc rotation of said knob...

I'm sure I'll rectify the problem but a complete fix will have to wait untill after this Saturn apparition.....I can counter the problem with my normal/usual obsessive collimation regimen but I want to dis-assemble the scope for a complete flocking job also - another aspect that folks have divergent views on but imo my work on the C11 with that made an enormous improvement to contrast enhancement...and I'll "kill two birds with one stone!"

Anyway, enough for now and I'll post the WinJupos combination later - not sure if it'll be an improvement but it will be slightly different..!

Wow!that's interesting! congratulations to Darryl's new discovery!I would like to getup early and try saturn!

Darryl,

Appreciate the "bush basher" mode of scope travel will add to some collimation issues. Been there, done that, we have plenty of bumpy dirt roads here as well! My old C11 was a collimation nightmare - you could here the mirror flop on that guy on meridian flips!

Look forward to your workng this data set. Any possibility of an animation of the n polar map? Not that I want to create more work for you, and I hope your head is better!

Lastly congratulations on an amazing early Saturn!

Glenn

Hi all,

I don't know if this helps the discussion or is totally not useful, but I found a Cassini image of the hexagonal north pole storm and resized it to Darryl's image (side by side) for comparison. One caveat is the Cassini image was shot in IR. Also the tilt of the planet is different, but I don't know how to deal with that in PS or whatever. This is quite an interesting discussion and I'm enjoying all the ideas and thoughts.

Paul

Thanks again Glenn and Paul - Paul, is that realy the image scale I used as it appears on your screen.....it's just that it looks considerably smaller than my image at the top of this thread (to me!) and has me wondering..? Most screens show the image as larger than the large HDMI that I use!

Darryl,
Any possibility of an animation of the n polar map? Not that I want to create more work for you, and I hope your head is better!
Lastly congratulations on an amazing early Saturn!
Glenn

Hmmm - you mean one of those "rolling" types of animation created from a single image Glenn - like Emil posted some nice ones of about year or two ago..?

I'd have to learn how to do it first if that's a possibility .....I will definitely look into it if it's possible (remember I have only one set of rgb's) but I still haven't sent off my image to WinJupos or the Jove's to the BAA yet..!

Meanwhile here's that WJ derotation of processed/combined rgb's.....I'm sure I can do a bit better but I also have so many things to do around the place atm.....I can see small parts where one is up on the other and vice-versa and it's probably just my obsessive nature running wild anyway - a bit different rendering also...but here they are anyway...

First the "scientific" orthodoxy with South up!

That ones going to hold the title for a while. It's so sharp its weird. Great work!!!

Pete

.....and one of those "good old" North up which some folks still see as "more conventional...

I found this image - the sides aren't straight, they're a little wavy. Although on a scale we have no hope of imaging. Also, look at all that stuff going on inside it!

http://www.universet...n-living-color/

You realize you actually imaged the polar octagon shape at least partially. I didnt know that was even possible. Look at it - it's angular.

This is a title holder to be sure.

Pete

I wonder if the hexagon on Saturn has been imaged by professional mountain top telescopes; I've always thought the images here are competitive with what they produce. Wouldn't it be outrageous if you and the other Cloudy Night members in the Southern hemisphere made history by imaging the hexagon with undeniable clarity in April? No pressure though :-)

Pete

You call that a Saturn? That's not a real man's Saturn. I could out-do that Saturn with my hands tied behind my back and my eyes closed!

That was just in case you were getting bored of all that praise. Now to be more serious

VERY VERY NICE DARRYL!!!!!
I wish I were able to do the stuff you guys do. Someday I hope! Regarding 7 min integrations, does your software compensate for axial rotation on Saturn? I'm just wondering if there's smudging of the hexagon? (can't see that, just wondering if that could happen.)

Like I said, very very nice! Jason H.

Pete,

Good question, I don't think it has been observed from earth based observatories. The last time the n pole of Saturn was well presented was way back around 1990-1992.

This lends credence I think to a "first" by Darryl!

The HST images of the time were sprinkled in artifacts due to heavy deconvolution of images from the then crippled optics.

Glenn

Gee Darryl, sorry, I didn't intend to open a can of worms by popping that NPZ enlargement :o I do goldsmithing and design stuff on the side and have a pretty good eye for a line...and that hex just jumps right out at me, guess it may not be as obvious to others. But I see it, that's my story, and I'm sticking with it

P.S. I've got to get one of these cameras!

Clear Skies,
Brian

Darryl,
You reminded me that you have only one set of rgb's. So no, the animation I was suggesting is not possible. But maybe next time!

Brian,
Sounds like you could be a co-discoverer since you mentioned it first in this thread.

Glenn

You call that a Saturn? That's not a real man's Saturn. I could out-do that Saturn with my hands tied behind my back and my eyes closed!

That was just in case you were getting bored of all that praise. Now to be more serious

VERY VERY NICE DARRYL!!!!!
I wish I were able to do the stuff you guys do. Someday I hope! Regarding 7 min integrations, does your software compensate for axial rotation on Saturn? I'm just wondering if there's smudging of the hexagon? (can't see that, just wondering if that could happen.)
Like I said, very very nice! Jason H.

I like it Jason - that is the sort of person I really am....!

We call it "stirring" and taking folks down a peg or two.....and I hope I never get that pathetic to not see the humourous side of anything (well, anything on these forums at least - there's enough really serious stuff going on around us to keep a perspective on all of our little pecadilloes)

I take this planetary imaging very seriousy, but I also take trying to be balanced and retain the lighter side very seriously also! .....hopefully folks pick up on that if they read through my tomes of writing!

I never had any trouble integrating 6.5 minute rgb runs with the Flea3 at greater image scales: I lucked some very hi-res images of Saturn's Great Storm back then that were very sharp on storm head detail using 6.5 minute avi's - I remember Brad and me having a few yarns on that topic and if I remember correctly he was using 7 minutes on Saturn and created some very nice images.....

You can see the derotated rgb images just above.....remember that although I shoot at 140 sec per channel they are really only the equivalent of around 7500mm on the Flea3 which could easily handle 6 minute total runs at up to around 9000mm or so using "classic" rgb combine methods such as AstraImage etc.....

I need to sit back and look at the WinJupos derotation image to see whether it picks up anything the "classic" AstraImage rgb combine didn't, plus I think I can process it a bit better also.....and remember, this collimation wasn't acceptable at all to me in normal circumstances except if I'd fiddled even a couple of minutes longer I would not have captured anything at all..!

.....absolutely NOTHING to apolgise for Brian!!!

Yes, sure wish we'd had more time Glenn! :rollgrin:

K-man that is a stunning set you have there!!! The hexagonal shape is clearly there, cannot wait to have a shot at Saturn and see what comes up even though it's only up to about 42 degrees from my location. Bravo my friend!

p.s. what would you say is the max time I can shoot Saturn using a color cam (DBK21) at 5800FL?

here is the one from Cassini

When I mentioned it at the beginning of the thread, I thought this was a first (to resolve hexagon from ground-based telescope.) That is why I mentioned it. Because if we are in agreement, this is a considerable accomplishment. There were some great images of Saturn during the last apparition. But, we didn't have near the tilt. So, why look. This year will be a great apparition.