AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun!

Lastly, I will say this to all owners and potential owners of the AP Gran Turismo telescope...do all you can to get it and keep it. It truly is the "Holy Grail" of apo refractors for a lot of reasons! Those who choose to flip it or sell it have no idea what they really have in their hands...Thee perfect refractor.

Tim,

Any idea of what the flippers are asking for these scopes lately? I'm no longer a member of Astromart, so I don't have access to their numbers. Thanks.

Mike

Brandon,
The seeing where I am does limit me to 200x or so on most nights (Many nights 136x with a 6mm is the limit). But past 200x I am making too many adjustments to keep up with a planet. Vibrations settle down quick enough but things move out too fast. It is nice to have at least 20-30 seconds to capture the steadiest moments of seeing. Also, vibrations while focusing at and above 200x make it a bit too difficult to nail that perfect focus. If and when funds allow I would like to purchase a DM-4 or DM-6.
Cliff

Great thread! My FS152 outperforms my 14.5" Zambuto about 90% of nights on planetary here in SoCal. I have made this observation multiple times here on CN and usually, to much skepticism. It's nice to see a thread that gives creedence to this observation. Because quite simply, it's true.

And, as I have stated many times before, on a really exceptional night the 14.5" dob BLOWS AWAY the 6" APO refractor. But on an average night the superior contrast and super crisp view of the APO refractor wins, hand down.

Cliff--Thank you for the mount feedback. I'm in a similar situation and am deciding how to mount my forthcoming 130GT. It sounds like the WO EZ Touch Alt/Az is a little over-stressed with a scope this size.

I though you had great seeing down in Tucson? Would getting high up out of the valley improve your seeing for your larger aperture scope? I know observing from a lower, and heated valley with high mountains around kill seeing until way after midnight. I had that bad experience living in Medford, OR ten years ago with 5-7,000 ft. mountain peaks all around. The +100 degree days during summer would kill seeing until the valley cooled down after midnight. I had to observe at 3am before sunrise to get great seeing.

Set up your AP175 next to anything you like and see if it doesn't show more at 175mm than a mega light bucket does, no matter what you do with its collimation on the average night. I have a C11 I'd freaking love to see outperform my diminutive AP130 EDFGT. But you know what? The GT's bar is way up there, and seeing spots after looking at Saturn isn't helping the C11's performance, despite getting as accurate a collimation as possible and getting it thermalized and testing it out and finding its optics are as good as an SCT can get. But compared to the AP 130, it can't compete on contrast. It can't show more detail. It throws up its hands and quits if there is any turbulence in the sky, whatsoever. So, should I be telling people how awesome that scope is compared to an AP130 EDFGT which is happy to put up fantastic images any night I'm not looking at cloud cover?

Maybe I'll find that magic sky the C11 wants, somewhere. I've got a full time job and little kids, so taking off on a 1,500 mile road trip to go find it isn't in the cards at the moment. I've heard stories about sub arcsecond seeing on Heliograph Peak over in the Pinaleños, so maybe one day I'll have a chance to haul all the gear over there and see what happens, assuming I can get permission to be up there since it has a communications relay on it.

I'm an engineer, and I work on telescopes for a living, so I'm quite familiar with all of the physics and the reasons big OTAs ought to be taking the wee scopes out to the woodshed. But all the really big scopes have done well on for me is the dim stuff. M57 through a 24" f/5 showed the central star with direct viewing and the ring even showed a hint of red. But the stars were blobs the size of pocket change on the table in front of me; it was pretty obvious it wasn't especially high resolution, even if the brightness had made the hard to-see dim central star obvious. In comparison, the best images of a planet I've ever seen in any telescope was in a hand figured long focal length Newtonian a mere 6" in diameter.

-Rich

For observing planets, using larger aperture (6"-10") buys you image brightness, tonal enhancement, additional color. More photons bring more information. These additional benefits will enhance your planetary observing. It's not a black & white issue concerning detail only. Planetary surface features are made up of shades and tones, not sharp features.

Just a clarification on what I have written:

The C8 and C14 comment is from the Spacefest star party earlier this year where I was set up between a C14 and a C8, and as people walked by they were looking through all three pointed at Saturn. And it was Thomas Bopp who commented, "While we have famously dark skies here in Tucson, our seeing isn't very good." And sure enough, not even the Cassini division was visible early in the evening, but it kept improving and by 11PM it was pretty obvious where the Enke division had to be. But with that seeing, how in the world was a C8 or C14 going to outperform the AP130 EDFGT?

The other part is from Dr. Nye's astronomy class years ago, which was a rule of thumb for the resolving power you should expect to get.

If I were to restate from scratch, I'd say, "The limits of atmospheric seeing are usually within the resolving power of a 5" telescope."

And at home I have had the experience of using little 80mm ED refractors as grab n go scopes, and regularly finding I can take them right up to their magnification limit and can see I could go further with more scope. And then switching to my other grab n go answer, the C5, I can get to the limits of the seeing. But only on a couple occasions have I been able to exhaust it.

So, while I know it is controversial, unfortunately it seems to be true: dragging around something bigger than a 5" scope won't buy you more resolution unless you can find awesome seeing.

-Rich

Or, maybe your Dob never gets to equilibrate properly if you observe after sunset from a hot driveway? I know that's my problem if I observe at home. I am forced to set up my telescopes on a driveway that's retaining the day's heat while the air 5 ft. up is cooler. Dob's need to be set up on a cool lawn. Yes, from my house, my AP 175 five ft. up operates a lot better than any Dob would because the ground heat isn't affecting it. The Dob's mirror is less than a foot above the radiating heat off of the ground.

Great thread! My FS152 outperforms my 14.5" Zambuto about 90% of nights on planetary here in SoCal. I have made this observation multiple times here on CN and usually, to much skepticism and even derision. It's nice to see a thread that gives creedence to this observation. Because quite simply, it's true.

And, as I have stated many times before, on a really exceptional night the 14.5" dob BLOWS AWAY the 6" APO refractor. But on an average night the superior contrast and super crisp view of the APO refractor wins, hand down.

Thanks for your advice Cliff - the portability of the 130GT vs. the 140 is an important consideration.

Mike, prices for the GT are all over the map due to whether they are a new untouched arrival or used. There are more of these than any other AP model as well I believe. I have seen them go for list price and as high as $8400 on a bidding war. I woud say the average price is $7500 and I would say it is worth it. One sold overnight recently for $6995. One Amarter is trying to sell an AP140 for $9000 asking price, but it hasn't sold. I offered $8500 for it the day he listed...he declined. I wouldn't go higher for it. AP155's were going for around $9000 just a year or two ago, now they seem to go near $11 to 12000 with accessories!?!? I'd simply buy a new TEC160FL at that price.

Any time Doug.

Tucson is dark, dry, and airflow challenged. So, dew is a distant memory at this point. If I move back east, I'm going to have to recover a whole lot of dew coping skills.

However, the air here moves a lot. So, for example, all of the dry washes ("Wash" is the local term for desert dry rivers which only flow when it rains. Arroyo or Wadi are the equivalent elsewhere) are active with colder air running along them from higher elevations at night. there isn't really a flat spot anywhere in Tucson since there are always gradients in the valley floor.

Getting to better air out here seems to be a question of going up. A friend of mine at work did the site surveys for the Large Binocular Telescope, and the site survey which resulted in them going with Mt. Graham in the Pinaleño mountains was done on Heliograph Peak, just a little ways down the range. It is at over 10,000 ft, and he reported sub-arcsecond seeing thanks to the steep prominence of the mountain range, which is over 7000 ft. above the surrounding countryside. However, I'd have to get permission to go there, and that's far from a sure thing.

-Rich

I though you had great seeing down in Tucson? Would getting high up out of the valley improve your seeing for your larger aperture scope? I know observing from a lower, and heated valley with high mountains around kill seeing until way after midnight. I had that bad experience living in Medford, OR ten years ago with 5-7,000 ft. mountain peaks all around. The +100 degree days during summer would kill seeing until the valley cooled down after midnight. I had to observe at 3am before sunrise to get great seeing.

I don't know if going up works either. I was stationed at Ft. Huachuca Az. near Sierra Vista at 5000 to 7000ft. I observed from Jan to Jun with a very good C8 and the poor seeing shocked me for planetary viewing. The wind always blooooooooooooows.

The seller of the TEC 160FL told me he sold it primarily because it was a hassle to set up (too heavy and not as portable), not that it gave no better view than his 130EDF-GT.

Peter,

Correct - make no mistake the views in my 160 are spectatcular and are noticeably improved over the 130. But its not as dramatic as one would think.

The direct quote from our private email conversation is below.

"...yes exactly. I prefer the 130 over the 160. Views are definitely better in the 160 but there is considerable hassle factor in setting it up compared to the 130."

In any event, I have a sale pending on the 160. Its a great telescope that tested out on the bench quite well.

Thanks, t.r.! I suspect that timing has a lot to do with the fluctuations. If one lists the scope on the day when someone with cash is really wishing for that scope there will be one price; if one lists right after several have just sold there might be another!

Mike

Part of it is who is buying. Roland is making real progress through some of his lists. If he catches up, then it should be like the mount prices. Of course, the convention wisdom is he won't catch up...ever.

-Rich

Lastly, I will say this to all owners and potential owners of the AP Gran Turismo telescope...do all you can to get it and keep it. It truly is the "Holy Grail" of apo refractors for a lot of reasons! Those who choose to flip it or sell it have no idea what they really have in their hands...Thee perfect refractor.

I've wondered about this especially now that I am close on the notifcation list for a GT. If there is another run, I expect to be notified. But I have an AP140EDF - a bit of a rare beast (60 scopes total I think I read on the Yahoo AP group) or perhaps the oddball depending on your perspective (a 140mm oil spaced optic in a 160 OTA - all the weight but less filling!).

Discussions like the one in this thread make me think I should just be content with the 140 - maybe hits an even "better" if heavier sweet spot given the seeing conditions in my neck of the woods. And I should just stop dreaming about a 160-180 class triplet.

Doug, you have a tough choice there if you only want to own one and really there is no need for both. I got my 130 just after a friend got an AP140. We have compared the views numerous times. Yes, 10mm difference can be see, mainly in showing just a tad, barely detectable, color saturation with no additional details rendered. For a few years now, I have gone back and forth on upgrading to the 140, but it is indeed a beast for a 140! The 130 provides a very, very similar view in a much more compact package that...WILL GET USED MORE. At least, for me. The Gran Turismo can really be used grab and go with planning, the 140 cannot because of mount requirements. The ideal would be the Gran Turismo on a Nova mount. At a weight of 47#, this is very close to the 45# Genesis and Super Polaris combo that I could carry out the door in one trip years ago...which I aspire to do again. But that Nova is a pricey bugger, the DSV-3 is what I have my current sights set on! At any rate, BUY the 130GT when your name comes up and figure out which one to keep later!!! My advice is always to buy when offered an AP (I passed on one of the first AP160EDF's when my name came up and have regretted it ever since), then figure out how to mount and afford it later! The logistics will works themselves out.

T.R., the wind is a serious problem. Supposedly if you can get to a steep enough prominence, the wind is deflected straight up and leaves good seeing in a low velocity bubble.

I remember going on top of engineer pass (12,800 ft) in the San Juan mountains in Colorado with my dad many years ago with a little Celestron Cometcatcher 5.5" Schmidt Newtonian, and being amazed at the clear images of Saturn.

-Rich

I don't know if going up works either. I was stationed at Ft. Huachuca Az. near Sierra Vista at 5000 to 7000ft. I observed from Jan to Jun with a very good C8 and the poor seeing shocked me for planetary viewing. The wind always blooooooooooooows.

Interesting debate. It was just this sort of comparison that made me choose a small apo for my NE skies and SLaP observing. This review helped:

http://www.cloudynig...php?item_id=939

The refractors can do a lot. Of course, at the price, they ought to, eh?

-Rich

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.

Wow, only in the 400's! I certainly thought it would be more by now. Thank you for the information.

Rich--This one's for you. Looks like they wanted to give me a 160 but changed their mind.

I got 469 two weeks ago.

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.

Wow, only in the 400's! I certainly thought it would be more by now. Thank you for the information.

Rich--This one's for you. Looks like they wanted to give me a 160 but changed their mind.

Dang, that kind of mistake I certainly would NOT complain about! Congrats on the very nice 130. I don't have a GT and wanted one back when I was traveling extensively via air, but I do have an original EDF. It is part of what I refer to as my AP Royal Flush (92,105,130,155,180), none of which are going anywhere but out under the skies, and works superbly. I still get tempted by the AP130 f8.35 scope when it pops up for sale from time to time though, even though I shouldn't. I just can't help myself when it comes to fine optics.

I got 469 two weeks ago.

Woo-hoo! So we are definitely on run #5 of these excellent refractors for sure!

Hi All -
I thought I would share my AP130 EDFGT notification list experience. I put my name in the AP 130 EDFGT list thru AP in 2010. Maybe my name will pop up in 2020. Who knows.

However, I purchased a Mach1 GTO thru Company seven several years ago, and only had to wait about a year to receive my mount (as was the case with people on the AP Mach1gto waiting list). Last year in February, I put my name down on the AP130EDFGT list thru company seven, and was informed over the weekend that they have a brand new scope waiting for me provided I still have interest.

I was shocked to say the least. One reason why I received some preference was (I think) due to my previous purchase and maybe my more proximate location to their showroom. Regardless, I thought that those waiting for one of these scope might be interested in hearing my experience as there might be faster ways of getting AP scopes. And company seven has always been a pleasure to do business with. Just FYI, and no, I have no association with Company 7 whatsoever, except as a satisfied customer.

Congratulations!!!

I'd be satisfied too!!! Company 7 has pulled off some miracles for deliveries of AP scopes. Enjoy it and appreciate it, many who have signed up way before you can't.