I just found this camera from china. Seems like it would be worth a try. Any ccd experts out there have an opinion on this cameras specs? Price seems cheap, but would take a month or so to get from china. Any thoughts?
http://www.aliexpres...holesalers.html
17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD2
Started by
Hemmi
, Jun 22 2012 01:11 PM
494 replies to this topic
#2
scout72
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Apollo
Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:46 PM
Looks cool- I would want to check out the manual before ordering to confirm manual settings of other function but also just did more of a broad search and looks like there are a few manufacturers that are using a DSP with x1024 sens-up- i would imagine this would REQUIRE some kind of cooling mod to get decent results but definitely exciting with a 700TVL chip 960h ex-viewII.
#3
Hemmi
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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:59 PM
Well I feel like a Guinna pig, because I ordered one just to play with. First task is to hope I didn't get scammed, because Aliexpress can be dodgy. I ordered the Pal version for the 20sec integration. If I get scammed its a lost 75 dollars, but its the only place I can find this camera. We shall see.
#4
John Miele
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Fly Me to the Moon
Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:28 PM
Is it color or B/W?
#5
Hemmi
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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:59 PM
Is it color or B/W?
Color
#6
StarmanDan
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Fly Me to the Moon
Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:08 PM
Odd that the SCB-2000 specs at .0001 lux at 512x while this camera specs .0003 lux at 1024x.
#7
scout72
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Apollo
Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:41 PM
The stated lux ratings for most cctvs are a joke- there is no standard for testing- I did find the same stat on the camera manufacturers website (lntech) and it had this: Lux= 0.003 (x256)
The important thing is what CCD chip and DSP are they using- I found a reference to Hitachi DSP for these cameras- not sure if that is correct- Hemmi will have to take some pictures when he dissects his!
The important thing is what CCD chip and DSP are they using- I found a reference to Hitachi DSP for these cameras- not sure if that is correct- Hemmi will have to take some pictures when he dissects his!
#8
ccs_hello
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Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:50 PM
If that's an ExView HAD II type-1/2" camera, I'd say it's a good deal. (NTSC: ICX672AKA, PAL: ICX673AKA).
AFAIK, SONY's Effio DSP line does not have capability to go slower than 512x field-integration time. Thus 1024x has to come from a different manufacturer.
Old CN thread: http://www.cloudynig...&Number=4921817
BTW, 960H CCD is making the pixel size smaller thus the S/N will not be as great as the commonly seen SONY enh-reso video CCDs.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
AFAIK, SONY's Effio DSP line does not have capability to go slower than 512x field-integration time. Thus 1024x has to come from a different manufacturer.
Old CN thread: http://www.cloudynig...&Number=4921817
BTW, 960H CCD is making the pixel size smaller thus the S/N will not be as great as the commonly seen SONY enh-reso video CCDs.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
#9
mclewis1
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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:15 PM
I think from looking at the 5 different models being sold on ebay at the link mentioned above that there are different sets of internals. Some sound like they are Effio based (2D noise reduction, 512x, etc.) and some are different (3D NR, 1024x).
It will be interesting to see what Hemmi actually gets.
The ExView HAD II is a great chip. It will be interesting to see the effect on DSO type of viewing/imaging from the trade off between increased resolution/increased noise (smaller pixels) and increased sensitivity. I'll bet it will also be a great planetary imager, based on how well the 1/3" Samsungs do in this area and the improvements this camera has.
It will be interesting to see what Hemmi actually gets.
The ExView HAD II is a great chip. It will be interesting to see the effect on DSO type of viewing/imaging from the trade off between increased resolution/increased noise (smaller pixels) and increased sensitivity. I'll bet it will also be a great planetary imager, based on how well the 1/3" Samsungs do in this area and the improvements this camera has.
#10
scout72
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Apollo
Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:46 PM
Couple more links- from the manufacturer- I ordered one too:
http://www.lntech.co...info.asp?id=538
http://www.lntech.co...Name1=boxcamera
The 320, 301, 300 series are the ones with a 700tvl x1024 option- the 300 looks kinda neat because it is a small form factor-
http://www.lntech.co...info.asp?id=538
http://www.lntech.co...Name1=boxcamera
The 320, 301, 300 series are the ones with a 700tvl x1024 option- the 300 looks kinda neat because it is a small form factor-
#11
Hemmi
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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:50 PM
If that's an ExView HAD II type-1/2" camera, I'd say it's a good deal. (NTSC: ICX672AKA, PAL: ICX673AKA).
AFAIK, SONY's Effio DSP line does not have capability to go slower than 512x field-integration time. Thus 1024x has to come from a different manufacturer.
Old CN thread: http://www.cloudynig...&Number=4921817
BTW, 960H CCD is making the pixel size smaller thus the S/N will not be as great as the commonly seen SONY enh-reso video CCDs.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
Correct it is not an Effio, but what I have no Idea. There seems to be only a handful of cameras out now with x1024 DSP. I can't find any reference to what DSP is in any of these new x1024 cameras.
Someone has to test these new cameras. We have had the same 2 Samsungs (a couple name changes, but nothing new) for 2+ years.
#12
scout72
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Apollo
Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:54 PM
Here is an example of a dome model (h3) with x1024 sens-up that specifies Hitachi Dsp
In the description it says : "our own DSP (h1), Effio DSP (h2) and Htachi DSP (h3)"
The h3 model with Hitachi DSP is the one with x1024
v3 dome
In the description it says : "our own DSP (h1), Effio DSP (h2) and Htachi DSP (h3)"
The h3 model with Hitachi DSP is the one with x1024
v3 dome
#13
James Cunningham
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Skylab
Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:55 PM
Can you ask the seller to send you the manual via pdf file and put it on this site so that we can look at it. If not, when you get the camera, let us know what it can do. I am interested too.
#14
mega256
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Posted 23 June 2012 - 07:44 PM
Hey this looks very interesting indeed...Wonder about the ir filter....look forward for more info..
Nice find Hemmi
Nice find Hemmi
#15
Dragon Man
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Soyuz
Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:48 PM
Interesting. Good find Lee 
It would be nice to find an improvement on the existing SDC-435/SCB-2000
and at those cheap prices it would be fantastic to help get people into Video ($70 Aussie with Free shipping from China).
It would be nice to find an improvement on the existing SDC-435/SCB-2000
and at those cheap prices it would be fantastic to help get people into Video ($70 Aussie with Free shipping from China).
#16
nytecam
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Hubble
Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:11 AM
Agreed Ken - at those prices [£40 PP] might be tempted to remove my Lodestar and try a little video ... but I love my Lodestar when it can churn out stuff like this in 1second exposure etc in M13 + Catseye PN [1s]; M92 [1s]; M92 [30s] and M57 [20s]Interesting. Good find Lee
and at those cheap prices it would be fantastic to help get people into Video ($70 Aussie with Free shipping from China).
#17
nytecam
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Hubble
Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:37 AM
Hi CCS - would these board cams be worth a punt 
or is additional circuitry needed for sense-up
This board seems identical [x1024 sensup] to the $73.50 complete box cam but small enough for mail envelope and fab as EPcam or at prime focus of Newt [no secondary] as weight is tiny - now I'm getting carried away - focal reducer before cam not shown !
or is additional circuitry needed for sense-up This board seems identical [x1024 sensup] to the $73.50 complete box cam but small enough for mail envelope and fab as EPcam or at prime focus of Newt [no secondary] as weight is tiny - now I'm getting carried away - focal reducer before cam not shown !
Attached Thumbnails
#18
James Cunningham
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Skylab
Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:53 AM
I wonder if you use Gstar software whether you could extend the exposure time to 34 seconds? With that chip and a good reducer, you should be able to see almost everything.
#19
ccs_hello
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:09 AM
If that's an ExView HAD II type-1/2" camera, I'd say it's a good deal. (NTSC: ICX672AKA, PAL: ICX673AKA).
Oops typo, I meant
"If ... type-1/3" ...
Sorry.
ccs_hello
#20
ccs_hello
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:16 AM
Nytecam,
Hmmm... that RJ11 indeed looks like is (or similar to) the $73 1024x 960H videocam.
However, I noticed that it does not have the 5-button input leads but can be controlled by Pelco-D RS485 interface. This may not work for some of the users here.
When Hemmi get his videocam, a close-up shot on the CCD board woudl be helpful for A-B comparisons.
In general board camera is a good solution for small form factor such as your proposed solution. Just need to make sure it won't get wet or touch any metal causing short-circuit
.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
Hmmm... that RJ11 indeed looks like is (or similar to) the $73 1024x 960H videocam.
However, I noticed that it does not have the 5-button input leads but can be controlled by Pelco-D RS485 interface. This may not work for some of the users here.
When Hemmi get his videocam, a close-up shot on the CCD board woudl be helpful for A-B comparisons.
In general board camera is a good solution for small form factor such as your proposed solution. Just need to make sure it won't get wet or touch any metal causing short-circuit
.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
#21
ccs_hello
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:39 AM
Another comment:
Set aside the collness of using the super-high resolution CCD (960H), have you noticed the camera is listed as the 650-700 TVL (TV lines) class?
Typically, the most commonly seen high-resolution (720H or 768H) videocam is listed as 550-600 TVL class.
Essentially, it means that
- At the same image sensor size (e.g., type-1/3"), the super-high reso type's pixel area is 50% smaller (3:2 @ 768H:960H) thus less light gathering.
- However, the horizontal resolution only marginal gain. The culprit is the NTSC CVBS output which choke the bandwidth.
P.S. For the curious,
yes, there are indeed standard reso CCD (512H). (Typically quoted as 330 TVL videocam when used.)
Under the same image sensor format (e.g., type-1/3"), its per-pixel area size is twice as the 960H's.
Who is using this type of classic CCD sensors? A good example is Meade DSI. This is a tradeoff between spatial resolution and more light gathering power.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
Set aside the collness of using the super-high resolution CCD (960H), have you noticed the camera is listed as the 650-700 TVL (TV lines) class?
Typically, the most commonly seen high-resolution (720H or 768H) videocam is listed as 550-600 TVL class.
Essentially, it means that
- At the same image sensor size (e.g., type-1/3"), the super-high reso type's pixel area is 50% smaller (3:2 @ 768H:960H) thus less light gathering.
- However, the horizontal resolution only marginal gain. The culprit is the NTSC CVBS output which choke the bandwidth.
P.S. For the curious,
yes, there are indeed standard reso CCD (512H). (Typically quoted as 330 TVL videocam when used.)
Under the same image sensor format (e.g., type-1/3"), its per-pixel area size is twice as the 960H's.
Who is using this type of classic CCD sensors? A good example is Meade DSI. This is a tradeoff between spatial resolution and more light gathering power.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
#22
jbell
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:13 AM
... but I love my Lodestar when it can churn out stuff like this in 1second exposure etc in M13 + Catseye PN [1s]; M92 [1s]; M92 [30s] and M57 [20s]
Another comment:...... The culprit is the NTSC CVBS output which choke the bandwidth.....
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
Yea, the direct usb connect of the lodestar is the bomb... and explains maurices pics. Best astro purchase I've made. When the lxd is cooperating, I can run rings around any other "live" camera in the area.
One other thought... No D/A converter, and no mpeg4 compression on the frame grabber.
my2c.
#23
Raginar
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:04 AM
Stupid question, are you guys just using a lodestar autoguider for those pictures?
Chris
Chris
#24
mclewis1
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:15 AM
Jim, I don't believe the Gstar s/w actually increases the exposure/integration times. It appears to offer a form of stacking and some other image enhancements that improve on the basic images. There are statements about the effects being similar to doubling the integration times of a basic camera.I wonder if you use Gstar software whether you could extend the exposure time to 34 seconds? With that chip and a good reducer, you should be able to see almost everything.
Increasing exposure/integration time within a camera is a huge trade of with the increase in noise. If you increase integration times you must address noise, if you don't it very quickly overwhelms the images.
One method is to improve the DSP (digital signal processor) and read amp characteristics - this is expensive unless they are part of new hardware/firmware intended for wide spread commercial use (volume pricing). The other method is internal cooling, and so far with video this is strictly for a boutique product (Mallincam, Stellacam) or DIY type of upgrade.
#25
jbell
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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:02 PM
Stupid question, are you guys just using a lodestar autoguider for those pictures?
Chris
Yea.. It's basically a starlight 7c in auto guider form. I believe it's same chip as mallincam but not hampered with NTSC.
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